If people aren’t supposed to defend themselves with weapons, including things that are designed to incapacitate without causing serious harm, how are they supposed to defend themselves? Is everyone expected to be able to fight like Bruce Lee, or are they supposed to rely on the cops, who very often cannot be relied on until after a crime was already commited? (IIRC, the Supreme Court ruled that you do not have a basic right to be protected by police.)
I think that it is pretty simple. There are many who simply do not trust others to be responsible, so they abrogate personal responsiblitiy to the legislature.
It is a case of “everyone is a thief except for me and you…and I am not so sure about you.”
Trading liberty for [perceived] safety…the true recipe for destruction.
… To a place like Arkansas where you can get a CC (concealed carry) lic. A lot of places have CC but in those places where a lot of people actually do carry, things seem to be less stressful, partly due to the locale I would imagine and partly due to fact that a high % of the people are armed and everyone knows it.
Look around at the country places where every pickup has a rifle in the back window. Not a lot of mugging going on.
If you have to live in NYC, Chi town or other places, DC, heaven forbid, then you are SOL IMO. To manny people are afraid of any personal responsibility and are too willing to let their personal freedom be taken away.
No, they are afraid of someone getting in a rage and kill everyone on sight over something slight. In a congested area such as a city, a lot of people can get wounded or killed very quickly by someone previously non-criminal going in a rage, before anyone can even respond. Thus the heavy restriction on guns here in NYC.
SPOOFE, you are my knight in shining armor!!!
stuffinb,
If I were being attacked by an asthmatic, I wouldn’t care less. I 'spose I could stop him and ask “Do you happen to have asthma? Cuz if you do you might die from this pepper spray.”
In my opinion, a person should be as ready as possible for the chance that some person will harm them. I also believe that taking away items of personal protection for the law abiding citizens only means the crooks, rapists and other criminal sorts have the upper hand. All people should be free to protect themselves, their family and their possessions.
I’ve had pepper spray, never once did I accidentally spray anything or anyone. In fact when I lived in Denver I had it with me all the time, ready to spray with not an incident to report.
In the words of Thomas Jefferson:
“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.” – 1791.
Where to begin.
Well, first, allow me to post the usual list of books that I recommend anybody interested in self protection read (once you get through those let me know and I’ll recommend some more).
“The Truth About Self Protection” by Massad Ayoob
“Stressfire” by Massad Ayoob
“Strong on Defense” by Sanford Strong
“Real Fighting” by Peyton Quinn
Plenty of good myth busting in these books so check them out.
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Chemical sprays. Sadly, chemical sprays are not very effective means of self defense. Cops use them to SOFTEN up a suspects defenses, and not to incapacitate the suspect. Also, as a cop usually you’ll get the suspect in some kind of hold before spraying him. These are things that are great for police officers, but not really all that grand for a regular Joe or Jane trying to defend themselves.
There are two kinds of chemical sprays. Tear gas and choking gas. Tear gas will do just that tear up the eyes of the assailant, and thats just about it. I am afraid to say that a violent criminal intent on causing you bodily harm is unlikely to be deterred by this, and if you are in range of hitting with your spray accurately then him being blinded is unlikely to do much since he will already be in range of grabbing you. And not accurately, tear gas is only effective immediately is sprayed directly into the eyes. Under adrenal stress this can be difficult without practice. Fortunately, tear gas spray is pretty vapourous and will roll up in the eyes if you miss in 6-10 seconds. Sadly, the fight is likely to be over by then.
Choking gas is FAR more effective. However, even with a direct hit it can take several seconds to up to 30 (!!!) seconds to take effect. Again, best to hit directly around the mouth or just under the nose, but this kind of accuracy is unlikely under adrenal stress without proper and serious training.
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The Walking Cane. First, as with all weapons it is not a “talisman of protection from harm”. You will not be able to magically wield the cane and destroy your attackers, if you haven’t learnt how. Second, if you do not have a bad knee or some other legitimate reason for carrying a walking cane then you will almost automatically lose a civil case brought against you, and in some states you are likely to lose a criminal case too. The reason is simple enough, any competent lawyer will be able to show that you were carrying the cane as a weapon and intended to use it as a weapon as some kind of macho retribution to anybody who dared to attack you! Bad news for your in the current legal environment. Legal self defense is equally as important as physical self defense. Simply defending yourself and winning in court can cost $5,000 - $10,000, and judges rarely give legal costs to the winner if there is even the slightest merit to the case.
You’re much better off carrying something designed and recognized as a self defense tool. This shows that your intent was self defense and solely self defense. One excellent choice is the kobutan.
As always self protection covers a lot of topics, and that is no single device or trick that is always useful. Preperation along the entire force spectrum is necessary. At some points along that spectrum maybe chemical sprays would be practical, and yet at other they are not. The important this is to learn about the spectrum and prepare yourself accordingly and to the degree you are prepared to accept responsibility for.
I don’t care if it’s legal or not, I carry mace with me. As a Conscientious Objector, I feel it’s the only reasonable form of self-defense I can use. Would I be willing to hurt someone who is attacking me? Yes, but I’d rather not. And I’m fairly certain I wouldn’t want to kill them, but I also don’t want to be put in a situation where I either have to make that decision or that might be the accidental result of my actions. To me, mace is the only logical alternative.
Esprix
From a Canuck…
I just went and read the criminal code of Canada regarding prohibited weapons meaning weapons or devices whose sole purpose is to cause injury to another. If you are caught possessing; mace, tasers, nunchaku, shuriken, kusari, switchblades, butterfly knives, kiyoga batons, brass knuckles, finger knives, concealed knives, belt knives, morning stars, blowguns or blades in excess of 30 cm (11 inches) you could be imprisoned for up to ten years. The list is actually longer than this. One should also note that anything can be considered a weapon if it is used to injure another person ie. if I used my ballpoint to stab someone I could be guilty of assault with a weapon.
The only reason I can see for these laws would be to prevent and punish anyone from using these devices to carry out a criminal act and prevent law abiding people from being injured through their own misuse of the said items.
Having trained with a number of these weapons when they were legal I can say that your normal person on the street isn’t going to be very effective in using them and would have that weapon turned against them in many situations.Carrying a weapon that you are unfamiliar with is more of a risk than not carrying it as in many cases it will be turned against the owner.
I once worked in a friends convenience store and would go in after Karate classes. I carried my nunchaku with me and would leave them under the counter while I worked. A young man walked in late one night and pulled a smallish knife on me, demanding cigarettes and cash. I reached down and pulled out my “nunchuks” and asked him how badly he wanted them as I warmed them up. He left skid marks in his haste to get away. If he had been carrying the nunchuks I would have been giving him the money from my own pockets as well.
This is just like many of the gun debates, if the criminals have these weapons why can’t we?
-If we had no laws against probibited weapons they would be available to everyone. The playing field would be level.
-Your average Joe could then carry his nunchaku or his belt knife with him and feel secure.
-I can see more minor disputes becoming potentially fatal.
There’s no easy answer is there?
Feynn quote
This is just like many of the gun debates, if the criminals have these weapons why can’t we?
Really you have the same opportunity to carry as the criminal.
The law will just prosecute you for it. The criminal will just plea bargain and get off.
Maybe we all need to have a lot more knowlege of illegal activity.
Lets see Did.'t Wrath say Freedom2 was speeding?
I feel a lot safer walking around NYC or Boston than Arkansas. <<dualing banjos.mp3>> 
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Heck I think it would be interesting to actually reduce the penalties for assaults with blades say over 24"
<Imagining gangs squaring off in a vacant lot drawing their katana…>
at least you wouldnt have the concealment issues, and bystanders geting stuck by stray bullets 2 blocks away would be a thing of the past.
gang members worhipping Conan instead of Coolio… that would be the day
Carrying swords would be great…At least if everyone had swords, you’d have a chance of coming out alive, rather than being up against a gun. Plus it would be cool to watch, heh…
From what I understand, you’re not allowed to carry weapons…but a criminal doesn’t care. He’s a criminal BECAUSE he doesn’t care about the laws, so he’s going to do it anyway. So logically, innocent people want to carry weapons to even the odds…but innocent people have to follow the law to BE innocent, and the law says no weapons. It’s like the law that says you can’t ride your bicycle on the sidewalk, you have to ride it on the road. Riding on the road, going only half the speed of the huge cars racing up behind you and switching lanes at the last second IF they see you, while the sidewalks around you are completely empty and if there WAS a pedestrian in the way you could swerve onto the grass with your bike easily, which you can’t with a car and–sigh…don’t mind me. I just really hate that law. Anyway, like the bicycle law, it’s one that made sense to someone long ago, but realistically it’s stupid.
So what can you do? Learn to use other things as weapons. Stick your car keys in your palm with the keys sticking out between your fingers and you have an extremely effective “claw”. Carry a pen/pencil in your pocket with you and learn to stab with it. Keep a small blade of some sort hidden in your wallet in case you have to give a robber your money. If someone wants your wallet, pull it out and as you start to hand it to them throw it shuriken-style into their face and hope it throws them off guard for a second while you step in and grab their gun (then jam your knuckles into their eyes or throat)…
I don’t carry pepper spray because I’m sure I’d get the nozzle backwards and end up helping whoever was trying to rob me, if they could stop laughing, heh…
Feynn - Love the nunchaku story, heh…I wish there were more opportunities to carry a pair around but alas…
- Tsugumo
“This place is fantastic; it’s like “Gone With The Wind” on mescaline. They walk imaginary pets here, Garland—on a fucking leash. And they’re all heavily armed and drunk. New York is boring!” - John Kelso, “Midnight In The Garden of Good and Evil”
I wonder if there would be any laws against carrying a small pressurized cannister of sulfuric acid?
probably not…until you use it, then again since it will probably blind and or disfigure someone but not kill them plan on being sued and losing.
At least if you killed an assailant with a handgun, but didnt have a conc-carry permit, you would probably at most get probation for the carrying w/o a permit but you had a legit self defense shoot therefore nobody to testify about the pain and horror they will have to live with for the rest of their lives in a civil courtroom
You know, there’s a reason I bought that Britney Spears CD…
Crook: “Gimme all your money, you devilishly handsome man, you!”
Me: “Yeah? Take THIS!!” ::whips out the CD::
Crook: “AAAAH!!!” ::runs away::
Me: “And thanks for calling me ‘devilishly handsome!’ Have a nice day!”
I disagree with this. This used to be the big thing that self defense instructors used to teach. Some still do, but most have recognized that this is a bad idea.
First, you are actually increasing the change of causing damage to yourself. Putting the key into your fist causes it to be shoved into the back of your hand and by pure dumb luck of body mechanics happens to put it in such a position that it can cause your hand to break.
Second, unless your key is knife-like sharp (and how many of you have a knife-like point on your key?) it really is unlikely to penetrate the clothing and skin of the assailant. Even if it manages to it will only cause highly superficial wounds. Certainly not worth the increased risk to yourself. It is kind of like the old “use a hat pin” as a weapon. Unless you deliver it directly to the eye or major artery it simply isn’t going to stop the assailant here and now, if at all.
Third, using it like a claw will result in very minor scratches unless you strike the eyes. But you fingers are more-or-less equally effective. A light flick of the fingers to the eyes is sufficient to make somebody. A hard rake will cause some damage with or without keys. Again, adding the key mainly adds only to your own risk.
Bottom line. The old key in the knuckle “trick” simply isn’t all that valuable and increases risk to yourself.
If you want to use an inconspicous (sp) weapon try the following.
Roll of quarters in the fist. Although impractical from the perspective of actually getting the quartes into your hand this is an effective “fist enhancer”. Doesn’t increase the chance of damage your hand anymore than punching with a regualar closed fist since the quarters are spread out across your whole palm.
Self defense ring. Yes, they are ugly as hell, but very practical since your always wearing one. The main thing is to make sure that it has a natural setting which is relatively sharp and juts out. The main classic is the wolf’s head ring. The fangs on the wolf make very nice cuts and scratches each blow. Granted these are not huge gouges but it makes a punch to the eye devasting.
We had a couple over for dinner the other day. Somehow or another the conversation turned to women’s self defense - probably concerning my 13 year old daughter. Our female guest was a strong advocate of the key trick. Mrs. D explained how simple it was to put your thumb in someone’s eye, or grab him by the balls.
What I found interesting was that, despite the fact that I have studied fighting for seven or eight years, my opinion was afforded little special credence. I thought they were both full of beans.
If I were a woman, I would carry the largest legal knife, and I would regularly train how to draw and use it. Other options are a box cutter, or a screwdriver in your car. Practice your story for explaining why you have it.
Self defense is ugly. And there is no one magical trick that will always incapacitate your opponent. The key trick is BS, for the reasons glitch so eloquently set out. And unless you have tried it under stress against a moving target, you have no idea how difficult it can be to strike your favorite target, especially one as small as the eyes. There are a number of crazy folk out there who voluntarily agree to be maced or pepper sprayed, and unanimously attest that it alone is not suffuicient to incapacitate them.
What I consider most important is, you do not draw your weapon until you intend to use it. And if you pull your knife, your intention is to maim or kill your opponent. So first you have to determine exactly what will cause you to want to escalate a condition in that manner. You want to end the confrontation, not make your attacker madder.
Not sure how exactly you’re holding it, but I mean having them so when you make a TIGHT fist (with your thumb flat on the top, sort of like a paw), you have the keys sticking out from the middle sections of your fingers, not the lowest section, and clawing/scraping rather than punching (they’re not sharp enough to puncture someone anyway).
Scrape hard and fast the corner point of your key on your neck and see what you think then. You don’t have to stab someone to death to stop them. If they realize “This person who I assumed would be a pushover to rob from has some means of hurting me”, chances are they’ll at least hesitate before trying something else.
Granted, but if you miss their eye with your finger and pat them on the nose as opposed to scraping the corner of a key down it, you’re not going to do yourself much good.
The best way to survive a fight is to avoid getting in one. If you reach in your pocket to pull out a wallet and you instead pull out keys, and look like you know what you’re doing (which is why I say LEARN to use other weapons), it’s going to at least mentally deter them a bit and that might be all you need for the chance to run away.
Anyway, I’m just saying that anything can be used as a weapon, and even if you can’t use it as a weapon, if the guy attacking you thinks you can, that’s good enough. Just make sure that if he doesn’t think you can, you can show him differently…Everyone should practise some sort of self-defense, even if it’s just learning to stay calm and hand your money over, then find a phone.
If only we could all just do a jump spinning hook kick against any weapon and knock the other guy out just like the movies…heh.
- Tsugumo
I don’t know about anybody else but this is one BS myth that I sure wish would die. The fact is that this statement is simply not true Many makeshift weapons (let alone “anything”) are impractical or ineffective as a means of self protection. An umbrella. A rolled up magazine. Lemon spray. Hat pins. Keys in the fingers. Pens/Pencils. Sound emitters. All things that have sadly becomes myths as being effective makeshift weapons, but are not. And the reality is that a person is better off defending themselves empty handed then decreasing their effectiveness by trying to use one of these things as a tool of self defense.
It might be, if it were true. Unfortunately, it isn’t. Violent criminals are only half intimidated by a presentation of a firearm (that is roughly half of the time the criminal will immediately flee or surrender). Keys in the finger? Let run it by first intimidation test (what I call the reality check):
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Would you be intimidated by it? Well, I don’t know about you but the thought of getting a minor scratch from a key is of little concern. So frankly I wouldn’t be.
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Would a police officer be intimidated by it? Street police officers fight a lot of fights. It is part of the job. So do we think that a police officer would suddenly be concerned if a suspect put a key between his fingers. Not likely. Again, the threat of bodily harm isn’t there.
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Putting ourselves in the shoes/mindset of a violent criminal, do we honestly and really think they will be intimidated by this? How you answer this depends on how much you understand the criminal mindset and criminology. A violent criminal who has your bodily harm on his mind is not going to be deterred by a 1/2" to 3/4" piece of unsharpened metal sticking in your fingers. Think about it. Think about that description. Does that put even the slightest fear in your heart? Now imagine a violent, adrenalized criminal bearing down on you.
Now, onto the actual mechanics of the key between the fingers trick.
It suffers from 3 major problems.
- You can grip the key as tight as you like, there is no way you can keep it from moving. The soft muscle and skin on your fingers gives it ample room to move vertically. And your palm is ill designed to keep it from moving backwards. It is this movement that poses you so much risk.
With the typical strikes one will make with the key one of two things will happen.
With a scraping/clawing motion the key will be forced upwards into your knuckle. First, with the kind of power that somebody will use in a fight this is going to hurt a lot. Even pushing it up with my other hand causes a red mark and some pain and that is nothing compared to what it will cause when you strike something. Second, it causes you wrist to deform (arch backwards). This is a classic way to break your wrist.
With a punching motion and to some degree clawing, the key will get pushed back. It will push just above the meaty part of the palm (just above the target area of a palm strike). If you push this with your hand open what you should see, if you do it right, is your fist deform (no big deal if you hand was in a fist) and you wrist bend to the left. This is a big deal. Again a classic way to break your wrist when striking.
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Lack of damage. As I posted in another thread any technique of self protection has to have certain characteristics. One of those is explosiveness or the ability to overwhelm. A key in the fingers lack this in a major way. It simply has no damage capability in the slightest except from the occasional lucky hit, and if we are going to count on luck we may as well do nothing and hope the criminal leaves us alone. Therefore it lacks explosiveness. Consider that if we can successfully land a claw with the key we could have landed a palm heel strike or a hammer fist, both of which are going to do a lot more to intimidate and hurt the assailant. If we are so inclined we could also have done a “tiger’s claw” or a rake of the face with the fingers/fingers nails (for you ladies). And even a rake with the empty hand is superior then with the keys as we will see below.
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Ability to strike vitally. No doubt about it you rake a guy with a key to the eye he is a hurting unit. But lets really consider how this works. The eyes, as a matter of protection are sunk into the face. They stick out very little. Now, we are going to attempt to rake the face with a closed fist, with a little piece of metal sticking out. This should already be giving any reader the hibbie-jebbies on the likely success of this. But for those still wonder. The fist is not a very ideal shape of the hand to rake the face. Coming across it is much more likely to strike with the middle knuckles on the finger (Ouch to you). Coming downwards you have the same problems except you are hitting the very hard forehead. As you try to scrape across the face the result is that the person head naturally turns and you give them a superficial scratch (a minor cut at best) on the cheek or forehead. On your side you have possibly broken a finger land a blow as such, and if your key actually hit then maybe you’ll break your wrist as in #1 above.
Lets assume that you have somehow managed to aim your blow so precisely that your fist doesn’t impact on their head. You know have another problem. You only have a single rake surface, the key. So, now you need to be doubly precise you must not only manage to miss striking with your fist, but you must arc across their face precisely striking the eye. Under adrenal stress, this is what we call a lucky break. If you count on these sorts of things, you don’t have a means of self protection you have a hope and a prayer. Raking with the fingers helps mitigate this factor because you now have four scatching surfaces.
The key between the fingers suffers from some serious not least of which the harm it can cause you and this might be fine if it delivered very effective self protection in return. Unfortunately, under real life situations it does no such thing. As with most things, it looks real good in the dojo/school but when some real thought is applied to just who well this works it becomes clear that it don’t.
(Some material paraphrased from “The Truth by Self Protection” by Massad Ayoob)