The Best Defense

Great Debates
1

To date, I have not been a victim of a robbery. Well, my parent’s house was robbed once many years ago but we were not home and not much of significance was taken. It was just that entire invasion of privacy thing that haunts you for a couple of weeks afterwords. We fixed the broken door frame. Changed the locks and added some new ones. In a while we felt better.

Anyway, now that I’ve got a family of my own and have moved down to the US, I find that I repeatedly wonder if that bat under my bed is sufficient to protect my family. We always live in the statistically safest neighbourhoods. We always add deadbolts to all outside doors. We’re religious about keeping windows accessible to street levels closed and locked. If living in an apartment building, we pick one with 24hr security and video cameras in garage and lobbies. We’re not paranoid but like most people feel it’s better to play it safe.

Given all that, an odd noise in the house which wakes me or my wife from our sleep, finds me stalking through the house in my bathrobe and bear feet, bat at the ready with safety switch off. And as I’m wondering through the house I think to myself… what kind of idiot am I? If somebody just broke into the house in the middle of the night, they have got to be expecting trouble and therefore carrying a weapon of some kind. Probably a gun. What the hell am I going to do with a bat against a gun? What if I’m outnumbered three to one? Why do my kids always leave their toys on the step with the sharp sides up!!! Don’t they know I’m going to be skulking around in the night, barefoot with a big club?!
But I digress…

So coming from a guy who’s never held an actual handgun or rifle let alone pull the trigger on a live round (though I used to be pretty good with a CO2 .22 pellet gun) should I be thinking of getting a gun to protect my family and home? My wife is 100% against it. I’ve got two very young kids but I’m fairly certain I can keep the gun safely locked and unavailable to them (sort of begs the question whether it will be available to me if I need it though). Keep in mind, if I do decide to (gulp) buy a gun, I intend to take all the necessary training and certification required for said ownership.

Is this a rational thing to be considering or is it just heavy influence by the sensationalism on the daily news?

One last thing… I don’t intend to make a last stand against some real or imagined tyranical gov’t with this gun. This is not in any way meant to be a thread about exercising my right to arm bears or any other species of wildlife, so let’s not make it about that.

(This may not even be the correct place to post this topic…)

2

If you are not sure and your wife is 100% against it, why do you care what we think?

picmr

3

You’re right.

The real debate may be between my wife and I if I do become convinced that having a gun in the house is no more foolish than my current defense system.

I was simply hoping to gather some ammo (pun intended) for the debate.
Moderator, please move this to MPSIMS…

4

QuickSilver, you’ve come to the right place.

First things first, go get a copy of “The Truth About Self Protection” by Massad Ayoob. You might want to consider getting “Gift of Fear” by Dr. Gavin deBecker too.

Second, I am going to sound a little harsh here. I don’t intend to be “mean” but somethings just have to be said in a direct manner. We are talking about life here. This is not a subject to beat around the bush about.

Sounds like the burglar(s) bested the door frame, so why bother changing the locks? Likely the door frame is too weak to survive more than a kick or two. Replace the door frame.

Yes and no. Fortunately, many burglars and rapist don’t bother to arm themselves since they aren’t looking for a confrontation. At the first sound that you are even home they will flee. Unfortunately, it isn’t that sort of criminal you need to worry about (it is kind of like the martial artists who boasts he can take anybody at the office … too bad for him the mugger on the street is a fair bit tougher than a pencil pusher).

A baseball bat is poor protection against a knife or gun. First, there is the problem of even having enough room to use it. A baseball bat is a poor weapon in any kind of enclosed space, and even in an open room is worthless close in except marginally as a kind of punch enchancer.

Second, there is really only two effective strikes with a baseball bat that you can really count of putting somebody down. One is to hit to the head. Unfortunately, hitting with a good strike to the head is easier said then done under adrenal stress. The other is to break the legs. The problem there again is effectiveness. The spots that you need to hit on the legs to get the quick stop are difficult to hit under adrenal stress. Anything else just hurts. Self defense has to be about quick, decisive action.

Certainly a baseball bat is going to be better than your fist. Ultimately, if you want a good blunt non-lethal means of self defense get a kubotan. You good also get a baton which is shorter that a bat so it remains effective at close range.

Amen. To anybody else reading this remember: If a criminal doesn’t care about a possible confrontation (breaking in when he KNOWS somebody is bound to be home) he is armed. Period.

Here I must caution you. Your odds of surviving a firefight with a gun aren’t all that much better than surviving a firefight with a bat. Same thing with trying to fight off three opponents with a gun. It requires considerable luck and no small amount of mindset training. Most firefights occur at 15’ or less. It takes somebody roughly 2 seconds to clear that distance and be grappling with you. With a hit ratio of 1 hit to 4 shots (this is the hit accuracy for trained police officers), it is unrealistic to expect to stop three people with a gun in the two seconds before they get you.

Good. Sounds like you are making some intelligent choices. Kudos.

The answer is a sound maybe. :wink:

Not very helpful, eh?

Okay, first, go take a course BEFORE you buy a gun. See if you can handle the idea of holding and firing a gun. Make sure the course provides lessons on gun safety. As you learn about this ask yourself if you will be able to keep your gun safe. Remember, whenever the gun is not in your control it must be locked up, unloaded, including 1 in the chamber.

Okay, the next question you need to ask yourself is about how you feel about countervailing force. If you cannot bring yourself to believe that countervailing violence is okay when somebody puts your life on the balance then do not get a gun it is becomes simply a liability that forces the violent criminal to destroy you when deep down you are unable to retaliate.

Lastly, you need to understand that owning a gun and killing somebody is fraught with problems. People who kill in self defense often experience insomnia, impotence, self loatheing, paranoia (mark of Cain complex), and possible civil and criminal court.

It is not a decision to be made lightly in the slightest. There is a lot to learn. Adrenal stress, defensive mindset, point shooting, legal liabilities, force continuum (if you are going to examine the lethal aspect of the continuum you may as well look at the whole thing).

Best of luck. If you have any follow up questions…shoot. :slight_smile:

5

I made an error. I mistakenly said “surviving a firefight”. Actually, your odds of “surviving” are pretty good (75% to 90% with a single gunshot wound). What I meant was “winning”.

The purpose of owning a gun is to help in escaping from the home. In that, IF you end up confronting the criminal you stand a chance. You should always try to escape and not confront.

6

Uh, What Glitch said…DITTO!

That was right on the mark!

7

I’ll look into those books. No profits from those books go to the NRA, do they?

By fixed, I meant replaced. But thanks for the concern. Replacing the locks for better ones was simply in order to make them more pick proof in case the next set of crooks decided to be more clever.

I keep hearing stories about how this or that assailant was armed with a knife or a gun and unfortunately, that’s the worst kind of assailant that I worry about. They can have the damn watch, stereo and TV. They’ll kill themselves just trying to pick the damn TV up. It’s my wife and kids I want protected.

I’ve also considered very seriously the shortcoming of a bat in the hallway. That’s why I got a small light bat and I choke up on it a bit. :wink: I’m also no slouch with my hands - studied martial arts for quite a few years. Still, I know the difference between an organized competition and a street fight. I much prefer the former to the latter. Far fewer unpleasant surprises.

Also, in the 3 on 1 scenario, I didn’t expect all the other guys to have guns too. Damn! Are you telling me that I need a machine gun now? I’m just being a wise-ass now but I hear what you are saying… with all that adrenaline pumping through your system, it’s hard to hold your hand steady enough to get a shot off, let alone actually hit your expected target.

Finally, it’s easy to speculate how you’ll react in a tough situation but the truth is that you almost never know until you’re in it. That makes the decision to get a gun all that much harder. I imagine that having it and simply freezing in fear while a family member is hurt will only want to make you blow your own brains out later on. Accidentally hurting your own is even worse. Not having one in a situation where it may have made all the difference is equally horrendous to imagine. There are no easy answers to this, are there?

8

This is the way I see it. An unloaded or locked up weapon never did anybody any good. With kids the house that are new to guns you would have to keep them locked up to avoid a really bad scene. If all family members are not competent and comfortable with firearms they probally should not be in the house.

For my money the best defense is to not be an easy or inviting target. Good locks are a start, but when I have been ripped off it was because I somehow advertised that there was someting good to steal. Cranking the stereo is a sure draw as is the huge entertainment center viewable through the front window.

I ended up settling on a dog that would raise hell if someone was lurking around. Luckily the dog is good enough not to raise hell if a squirrel is lurking around.

I do keep a couple of shotguns too, but they are taken apart and in a case so the dog would have to give lots of warning.

9

Concerning book profits: As far as I know, none of the profits go to the NRA. It is possible that Ayoob makes contributions to the NRA, but I wouldn’t know.

I’ll look into those books. No profits from those books go to the NRA, do they?

You’ll find the chapter on locks in “The Truth About Self Protection” interesting. Too much to summarize here.

Get a baton or the kubotan. More effective than a short bat. Generally, you get what you pay for. And if we are talking about serious self protection then you want something very strong, and something that was designed for combat. The baseball bat wasn’t, the baton is. You can do a lot more with a baton than a bat simply because the baton is designed to be effective.

There are many problems with hand technique as the primary means of self defense, especially if it isn’t taught in the context of adrenal stress (i.e. scenario based training). Again plenty of good reading material available so as to understand what really works and what really doesn’t. “Real Fighting” by Peyton Quinn is a good start.

Note, I am not critical per se of the martial arts (I have been an instructor for going on 18 years now). But it is critical to realize that under adrenal stress you will lose fine motor control and experience tunnel vision (amongst other things). This makes the fine precision everybody can display in the dojo fly right out the window. Combine that with the false bravado instilled by the large bulk of instructors (i.e. karate is a “Hammer of Thor”) and you have a recipe for disaster.

This isn’t necessarily a commentary on you, or the marital arts you know. I don’t know you or what you know. My desire is simply to get the neurons pumping. Objectivity/honest unbullshited thought is absolutely & totally fundamental to developing a self protection package. Read “Real Fighting” and think about it. Maybe there are things to improve, and maybe not. If not, great, if so better to do it now then when your bleeding in a gutter wondering what went wrong.

No, I as assuming they were unarmed, or armed with melee weapons. If they all have guns, your dead 9/10.

While I mentioning books. If you have the money get “Stress Fire” by Massad Ayoob. The best book about firefights under adrenal stress you can get. There are others if you want more recommendations later just let me know.

I have preached this in other threads. But what you are touching on is scenario based training and predetermined action (concepts taught at the Lethal Force Institute run by … drum roll please … Massad Ayoob). Read his books. No, learn the books. It is an excellent start (the rest is training and practice) on the road to developing true personal self protection.

Yes, but is it equally as bad to be tied to a chair and have some scumbag rape your wife in front of you, slit her throat , beat your child’s head in with a blunt object and then shot you in the face?

But this isn’t something I can answer for you. This is the notion of triage and countervailing violence, that only you can accept for yourself. Read “The Truth About Self Protection”. It will put the seeds of the right questions in your mind and heart.

Nope. :frowning:

Again, my epilogue here is. We are talking about life … self protection. I won’t beat around the bush on this subject because it is far to serious. I apologize for any bluntness or insult, but this is something I do know about since I teach self protection for a living. I am the same way in my school. Remember: Self Protection = No Bullshit because Bullshit = Death.

10

I have two pieces of advice. First, don’t go out and buy a gun until you’ve spoken to other gun owners, gone to a shooting range and fired several different models, and done your own research. The above led me to the SIG Pro 2340; what feels best in your hand is something you have to experience and figure out for yourself.

Second, I’ve always felt that the best thing you can do to protect your home is: get a dog. Dogs are much cuddlier than a home alarm system, and usually just as sensitive to nighttime noises. Plus, criminals generally avoid houses with dogs because they’re so unpredictable; it’s easier to move on to another house than to tangle with a dog. Also, I bet the wife and kids would love to have a dog. You’ll be a hero.

11

I grew up with guns in my home. My friends grew up with guns in their home. It’s safe to say that where I lived almost every single family had some sort of gun in their home and truck. Yet in all the years I lived there, there was never a single accidentle death due to a gun.
Here’s why, as far as I’m concerned:

First, If you buy a gun ** Teach your children ** Teach them how to handle a gun, teach them that a gun is not a toy, and teach them that guns are used to kill living things. Do not hide these truths from them. Teaching them will not encourage them to use it. Just like teaching them about condoms will not encourage them to have sex. THey are never too young to learn about the harsh realities of weapons. Education is the best protection.

Second, ** educate yourself ** repeatedly. Take a gun safety course every year. Not just once when you buy the weapon.

Third, if you own a gun, be aware that you may have to use it. Always understand that with a gun ** You have the power to take a life away ** and in the heat of the moment, you might act before you think. That’s a risk you must take under consideration the second you bring a gun into your home.

Fourth, do not fear any guns. ** Respect them **

I am by no means the weapon expert of the world. However, I know from experience how to act around guns. THey have always been a part of my childhood, and I have never been aware of any problems. As a matter of fact, everybody takes hunter safety when they turn 14, it’s just something that is expected.
Education is key.

12

Kudos to Max for recommending a dog. Don’t get one from the mall either, get one from the pound. You’ll be saving his life and maybe he’ll save your life in the future.

Second, I hate guns. This is just my opinion so ignore it if you feel like it. Guns kill people and I try not to kill people as often as possible. If you find yourself at the gun store, I suggest looking at the mace selection. You can buy a can of mace that shoots at least twenty feet and will definitely incapacitate anyone on the receiving end of it.

If someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night, remember that you can navigate in the dark far better than he can. You know where all the furniture is. Soak him down with the mace, repeat as necessary (although it probably won’t be) and call 911. You can also tie him up with some duct tape and whack him with the bat to pass the time while the cops come. I’d recommend dragging him outside as well to keep the mace smell out of the house.

This is a very serious topic and I don’t mean to take it too lightly. It really boils down to your personal values. Personally, I figure that if three guys with guns come into my house with the intention of killing me, it’s very likely that they will succeed whether I have a gun or not. I made a personal decision a while ago to not kill anybody and I’ve found a number of ways to defend myself and my family and still keep everybody alive. It’s worked so far. I’m still here and so is everybody else.

13

I’d like to add a third recommendation for getting a dog. This is probably the single most effective defense you can buy. Interviews with B&E artists show that houses with dogs in them are almost always avoided by burglars.

Someone else mentioned that the best defense is to simply make yourself and your home a difficult target. This doesn’t take much, because there are lots of houses to break into. If your house has an alarm system and a dog, and your neighbor’s doesn’t, guess which one the burglar will pick?

14

You said you were interested in information to help you in dealing with your wife on this issue. I recommend this article:

http://www.reason.com/0001/fe.js.cold.html

Personally, I would be horrified if I ever killed someone with my gun. On the other hand, I much prefer that horror to the situation where my wife of child is killed by someone else.

Slight hijack:
Might interest you to know, the leading Libertarian presidential candidate is considering a campaign ad where he suggests that all gun control advocates place the following sign in their yards:

Attention Criminals: We are supporters of gun control. There are no guns in this house.

Hope this helps frame the issue for you some.

15

This is a very common myth and what that simply isn’t true.

First of all, there are two types of chemical agents. CN and CS, choking gas and tear gas.

Choking gas tends to be more effective from the perspective that if you manage to spray it anywhere on the face the vapors while take effect. However, it is slower to take effect. Even with a direct shot it can 2-8 seconds for it to take effect. And that is for it to take effect, there is little guarentee that it will stop an enraged opponent. However, it does have more stopping power than tear gas.

Tear gas is completely ineffective unless the shot hits the person directly in the eyes. Sure, the vapors will eventually cause slight tearing but only after 30 or so seconds. However, the good news is that with a direct shot to the eyes severe tearing will occur immediately. The rest of the bad news is that tear gas has almost no stopping power.

Second, hit with mace at 20’? Not likely under the pressures of adrenal stress. And remember for this stuff to be effective the hit has to be very direct.

From my perspective, the delay of the choking spray makes it completely inadequete for the needs of self protection. If you must carry a chemical agent carry a tear gas spray. Learn how to use it, especially in conjunction with the vital defensive mindset. Tactically, as you spray the attacker step back and to the sides. The nature of real fighting is such that if he manages to grab a hold of you, the fact that he is tearing won’t matter.

Concerning the baton vs. the bat: It occured to me last night that I wasn’t clear by what I mean by a baton (since this is the term I have become used to using in my dojo and everybody knows what I mean there). I do not mean one of those expandable batons. Although some of them are good, the fast majority are junk. No, I refer to something again to the police officer’s nightstick. In fact, if they are legal in your jurisdiction that is exactly what you want. Even if they are you can almost always get something similar.

Such a baton will break bones or even turn them to powder with a good hard shot. Something that a baseball is surprisingly unlikely to do unless it hits directly to the kneecap or to the two sweet spots on the leg. The baton with a side grip can be used in close quarters fighting very effectively. The baseball bat can’t.

You won’t go wrong with a baton.

The other choice is a heavy flashlight. The serves two purposes. First it provides valuable light (this joke about knowing the way through the dark in your own house is funny, but the joke’s on you when your animal mind takes over and you find yourself stumbling over the couch), which you can turn on and off at your leisure (again, important to learn tactically how and when to use the light from your flashlight). Second, although not as effective as a baton, these things are very powerful. That’s why the cops have them. They are almost never illegal, and prevent a variety of legal problems because they are not a weapon. They are a tool.

16

Thanks folks. Plenty of food for thought. I’ll be doing some research for a while based on the recomendations.

We’re going to a local gun club in a week or two to learn about guns and more importantly about our personal tollerance for them in our own home. It’s going to be a gradual process, no doubt.

A dog’s a great idea and we’ve considered it before. But, since we travel - a lot - a dog is just not in the cards.

Glitch, I know the baton you mean. I’ve held one before and conceptually know about it’s uses. Always thought I should get one. Maybe now I will. Oh, and thanks for that mental picture of being tied to a chair, etc… I should be able to get that out of my brain in say…oh… a month, two at most… I’m getting rid of all the chairs in the house just because of that mental image you helped create for me. We’ll be sitting on rugs and pillows from now on like bedouins at meal time. :wink:

By the way, Glitch, you weren’t trained by the Israeli Mossad, were you? Maybe the US Navy Seals? No offense dude, but I’ve got a mental picture of you hauled up in your basement bunker looking every part like Rambo with an arsenal of weapons lining the walls. :smiley: Kidding. Kidding. I really do appreciate the reading material tips, etc…

17

My pleasure … I think. Seriously, though, it is these questions you have to ask yourself. Sanford Strong puts it something like this in his book “Strong on Defense” (yet another good book to buy … no, I don’t have stock in amazon.com):

(paraphrased) “Expect to get hurt. Nobody fights off an armed assailant and doesn’t get hurt. It is the fear of getting hurt that keeps people from acting. The question you need to answer for yourself is, would I rather get hurt even seriously than be raped, assaulted, tortured or killed. When you answer that question then if you have to grab a knife blade to make it happen you will because you know that being hurt is simply part of defending yourself.”

The question is similar for you except instead it is “Am I willing to kill and face the consequences of that (sleeplessness, impotence, etc) rather than be the victim of crime?”

[humor hat on]Son, if I told ya, I have ta kill ya.[/humor hat off]

Seriously, all the training I have had (except one) is open to the public, plus my own experience as an instructor (I learn more teaching than I ever did as a student). Lethal Force Institute and the Rocky Mountain Combat Applications Camp, for example. Both of these are on the web. Since you are thinking about buying a gun, and since LFI tours the country you might consider seeing when they might be coming near you. They offer the best courses in gun self defense you can get, IMO.

None taken. Although I do have to make a note of this. So far, people think I either look like:

  1. the evil dojo owner in Karate Kid
  2. a fire hydrant (still not sure what THAT means)
  3. a Rambo-esque psychotic complete with foaming at the mouth (for the record, I only have 1 gun)

:slight_smile:

The reality is that I am passionate about real self protection. It is my line of work and it saddens me that there is so much crap out there. Everytime I read an article about using a “rolled up newspaper”, “an umbrella”, or “home made chemical agents like dish soap”, it makes me cringe … because somebody dies for it.

18

Good words, Glitch, as usual. I had to smile at your last lines. Not because they are funny, but because they are true. I once served as a guest instructor for a weekend camp that a friend of mine was hosting. The focus of the camp was “taking it ouside the dojo”, and one of the other instructors actually taught the “rolled up newspaper”, the “keys in the fist” and the “high-heeled shoe” in his seminar. I was then left with the unenviable task of disabusing the participants of the efficacy of such tactics without causing sever insult to the other instructor or my friend and host. I felt like a Walenda for the next 4 hours.

BTW, to add another voice to the ineffectiveness of chemical sprays, I used to do demonstrations with the following rules:

  1. I start 15’ away from my target.
  2. I have a magic marker which will simulate a knife.
  3. My target has a bottle of pepper spray in hand, aimed, and ready to spray.
  4. I keep my eyes open and do not move until the target has begun to spray.

I ran this demonstration 4 times and never failed to draw many pretty red lines upon my target. True, I also cried and screamed and once vomitted. But by the time I needed to run for the hose the “damage” had been done.

I also learned first hand (thanks to the kind tutelage of SFC Davis) that it is quite possible to enter an environment thoroughly impregnted with CS, remove one’s mask, and remain fuctinal long enough to answer several stupid questions and demonstrate the sequence of military drill postures.

In short – chemical agents work just fine for eventually subduing the majority unarmed aggressors without causing them grievous harm. This, coincidentally, is how those police forces with which I have discussed the matter recommend they be used by their officers. They are not effective for quickly subduing an armed attacker.

I personally have two very large, loud and friendly (but the bad guys don’t need to know that) dogs. I also have a variety of weapons in the house, but no firearms at present.

19

Spiritus: I am glad you mentioned the police. Police technique with chemical agents is pretty simple. Two or three guys hold the resisting subject. One sprays him in the face. They then hold him until he doesn’t feel like resisting anymore. I don’t think I should have to say anything about the practicality of a single person fighting a standing armed attacker equalling the force of two or three trained officers sitting on top of a guy (the police almost never use spray against somebody standing … they’ll use they nightstick first).

Sanford Strong, a former SWAT officer, once tried to spray down a suspect on his. The result was he sprayed himself in the face. Luckily for him, the suspect fled. The problem, he never practiced with the thing and under stress he failed to operate it properly with the minimal practice and training he had. So, if you are a die hard chemical agent fan, buy two bottles. One to practice with, the other to carry.