Just in case I was unclear: I wanted to express in my last paragraph that the absence of evidence in the examples brought up by Dio and others, gives us more than enough reason to conclude that even the plausible events of the Exodus are fiction, because it didn’t happen at all, while the absence of evidence regarding eclipses in the Egyptian documents does not favour equally strongly one specific conclusion and leaves room for competing interpretations.
Hearsay. The Genesis text only says that he was embalmed and put in a coffin in Egypt, and the Exodus text only says Moses took the bones with him. So the coffin was just lying at the bottom of the Nile for all that time? You’re aware the Egyptians made their coffins out of wood, right?
Not that I believe any of this stuff, obviously, but in Jewish Orthodox tradition, the “Oral Torah” (as relected in Talmudic and Maidrashic writings) is coequal to the Bible. They believe it was given to Moses at Sinai along with the written law. So, in a matter of speaking, it actually is part of Jewish “scripture” that Joseph cooled his bones at the bottom of the Nile for 400 years.
Of course, some more cynical types might suggest that a lot of these kinds of Midrashic traditions are just a kind of retroactive fanwanking designed to fill in gaps and reconcile contraditions in the Bible.
Didn’t “everybody” in Germany around WWII believe that Jews were the cause of the economic depression? That’s (a) national, (b) hallucination-proof, and (c) commemorated (if you consider shipping people off to death camps to qualify as “commemoration,” which I would).
You win the thread.
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I will resist the urge to provide definitions. And the reason is this: unless I use a term in a vague, or indefinitive, sense, there is no need for me to define what I mean. Indeed, any words I use will them allow you to ask me to define what I mean by those words, and since the English language isn’t infinite, I will run out of definition. So, no, I will not define what I mean. We know, based on our experiences that a large group of people have never hallucinated for forty years straight. We know what the word “commemorated” means; we know what the word “event” means; and we know what the word “national” means. That you ask me to define it alarms me.
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People claim that since people used to believe that the world is flat, or the germans believed that the Jews were behind the economic depression, that proves that national history can also be false. I beg to differ. The Germans believed that the Jews acted “behind the scenes.” It was a belief regarding a phenominon which they never witnessed. I never claimed that beliefs can’t be wrong. Indeed, Democrats and Republicans can’t both be right regarding how to run the country. Beliefs are always wrong. But beliefs about national history has never been shown to be wrong. So, you guys respond, “But the Egyptians never recorded the Exodus. Ha! You lose.” And I respond, “neither did they any other loses.” Indeed, they (effectively) never record solar eclipses of their SUPREME GOD, which happened hundreds of times. Indeed, regarding Anakhenton, who was a Pharoah who tried to introduce a new religion, the Egyptians tried to erase his name from their histories. In fact, according to one scholar, “it took a triumph of archeology to ever find out that he ever existed.” In short, the Egyptians never record when their gods get dissed (you know what the Nazis tried to do at the end of the Holocaust, don’t you?). And when I present evidence which has never been wrong - and all you can respond is by using profanity such as “bullshit” or “the Fantastic four” and other nonsense, it makes me wonder: It truth even on the agenda?
Diogenes: Did they search the entire desert for tools. Furthermore, the Jews left mostly empty-handed, so they probably didn’t have tools. Also, since when does “shit” stick around for 3,300 years?
You simply cannot argue from an absense of evidence, especially, as I said before, there seems to be a certian amout of positive evidence for the Exodus (I am not an expert in archeology, but, still, it just seems curropt to doubt that an event happened since they simply cannot search a desert fully). (For further reading, see Living Up to the Truth, availible online, in which he present the archeological evidence in favor of biblical events.)
People had all kinds of *hearsay *evidence for Jewish depredations around the time of WWII. Just as you have all kinds of *hearsay *evidence for the Exodus.
If you were really interested in this being a logical proof of your religion, you’d define your terms. But this isn’t logic–it’s faith. No matter what evidence we bring to bear that shatters your faith, it doesn’t matter, because it’s not based in logic.
If you actually want to make sensible and precise arguments for what is supposed to be a logical proof, then you have to use precise definitions. “Hallucination-proof” certainly doesn’t mean anything, and “National” is also quite vague when talking about something that is a religious belief, not somthing inherent to any “nation.”
Prove that anyone ever witnessed Sinai. I never claimed that beliefs can’t be wrong. Indeed, Democrats and Republicans can’t both be right regarding how to run the country. Beliefs are always wrong. But beliefs about national history has never been shown to be wrong. So, you guys respond, “But the Egyptians never recorded the Exodus. Ha! You lose.”
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This is not what we responed. We pointed out the overwhelming archaeological and historical evidence against the Exodus, notwithstanding anything the Egyptians said. This attempt to narrow things to “the Egyptians didn’t record it” is you trying to reduce the eveidence against the historicity of the Exodus to your own feeble strawman. That is not our argument.
This is not an important point, and it’s kind of a red herring, but just for the sake of factual accuracy – yes they DID record losses. most notably (but not exclusively) their own subjugation and humilation at the hands of the Hyksos. You are misinformed.
And failed completely. The fact that they couldn’t even conceal the life and policies of one, short-lived king does not much buttress your (completly ad hoc and evidence free) assertion that the Egyptians manage to conceal the 400 year archaeological history of an entire, enslaved culture numbering in the millions – a culture, by the way, which can clearly be shown to have not even emerged in Canaan until anywhere from 400-700 years (depending on which of the contradictory Biblical dates you want to use) after the Bible says they became enslaved in Egypt.
What is the “belief about national history”, anyway? The Bible is chock full of prophets complaining about the people turning their backs on Yahweh in favor of some foreign god or other – rather odd behavior if the Hebrew nation actually believed that Yahweh had worked an indisputable miracle on behalf of their ancestors, methinks.
But you don’t know that the chronicles that describe the events are TRUE. That’s the weak link.
For example, I could sit down and write a book about how 21st century Angelenos take care of their pet unicorns: " … There are thousands of pet unicorns in Los Angeles. Not a Sunday goes by when you don’t see a large crowd gathered around a unicorn in the park! …"
Obvious this is fiction. But using your standards after a few hundred years my book could be interpreted as evidence for the existence of unicorns: “Look … it says they were thousands of them in the city. Everyone SAW them! All those people couldn’t all be hallucinating at the same time!”
Those who point out that no one has every found any actual evidence for unicorns in the L.A. basin are hand-waved away: “So what if there are no photos, no old unicorn horns, no dusty old bags of unicorn chow … absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!”
Just because it’s written down, that doesn’t mean it’s TRUE.
The Sinai has been desperately scoured for centuries by people looking to find evidence of the Exodus. For the most part, these are people who wanted to find that evidence. In particular, they have focused on an oasis called Kadesh-Barnea, where the Bible says the Israelites spent 38 of their 40 years. 2 million people is a city. That many people cannot live in one place for so long without leaving a lot of evidence. The Sinai holds evidence of human movements and habitation very well (very dry and rocky, no rain or shifting sand). Archaeologists (using satellite imaging) can pinpoint tiny Bedouin campsites and even holes made from tent poles 3000 years ago, but despite prolonged, concerted, and highly motivated efforts, no one has ever been able to find a single trace of any human habitation whatsoever at Kadesh-Barnea at anywhere near the time of the Exodus. Not a single potsherd or bone, no campsites or fires, nothing.
And yes, the human waste of 2 million people in a single location for 38 years (a sanitation problem that would defy even modern efforts to control with no water, by the way) would leave archaeological evidence.
In this case, yes I can, but more importantly you are the one making an assertion which is not supported by evidence.
I’m not going to do your research for you. Why don’t you post what you believe is the strongest archaeological evidence for the Exodus and I will be happy to address it.
Oh good.
The omen which the Aztecs saw on their way to Mexico applies. White frogs, white reeds, white cypress, white snakes, white willows, and a white spring flowing from a tree which suddenly – when they came back to it on another day – turned into two springs, different colors. There’s also a fulfilled prophecy of an eagle landing on a nopal growing from a stone.
See also here, 40-44.
No, see, cuz they were eating manna and stuff, provided by god, so it doesn’t cause waste. Also, they were eating the Angelenos unicorns, and that also doesn’t cause waste.
(Man, this kind of argument from magical miracles is sooo easy!)
My father told me a story of how, when he was young, he witnessed my grandfather knock a mule unconscious with one punch. Now I have no reason to disbelieve my father, do I?
Now let’s say, out of poor memory or the desire to tell a “better” story, I tell my son that my grandfather knocked a horse unconscious with one punch. Then my son, for the same reasons, tells his son that my grandfather killed a horse with a single punch…
It is entirely possible that 40 generations from now, the story may be told from father to son about how one of his ancestors was so strong that he punched a hole right through the chest of a charging bull, pulled out the bull’s heart, and saved the life of the president in front of a crowd of 10,000 people. In fact, if my family line is big enough or if one of them gets to be famous enough, it could become part of this “national memory” you seem to think so highly of.
The point is, “a bunch of people believe it” isn’t proof no matter how you dress it up, and that’s all your argument is. You can hang all the “national memory” and “heavily commemorated” window dressing on it that you like, but it isn’t proof. Not at all.
It’s funny. If Exodus is true, the Hebrews forgot about God as soon as Moses turned his back less than 40 years after they themselves witnessed truly awesome and supernatural miracles. Yet today we have people who still believe in God based on nothing more than translations of translations of 2000-2500 year old descriptions of miracles.
The beliefs of the Hebrews in Exodus seems a thin reed to peg all your hopes on.
There are so many points that I simple cannot respond to all of them. It’s a shame, because so many stunningly stupid things have been posted.
- Strassia: How do you know that the Old Testament is “translations of translations.” You use the same words used by Sam Harris, but he used them for the New Testament, not the old.
- Bpelta: How many Azteks were claimed to have been there? Was the Aztek ancestry 20 people or 25 people?
- The Hamster King: The proof is not from the fact that the Bible reports the miracles. The proof is from the fact that the Jews believe in the Bible, a Bible which describes that millions of their ancestors, each and every one of them, experienced miracles. You could write a novel, of course. But try writing a novel about a false national event - such as a volcano in New York City - and if you get the New Yorkers to believe it, you will have refuted the Kuzari principle. Until then, you got nothing.
- The Hyksos story had a happy ending, which is why they recorded it. They were saying, “Look how our gods got the last laugh!”
- In Egypt, they were simply “slaves.” We do have MANY reports of slaves in Egypt.
- Diogenes: My point from Anakhenton was that the Egyptians tried to obscure history. If so, why would they go out of their way to WRITE a shameful history?
There are many other points that I could not respond to due to lack of time. C U 2morrow.
abele derer, I think what you’re encountering is a classic message-board stumble. You came to this board based on an outside link, and rather than take time to understand the board’s culture, you jumped right in. What looks to you like stupid points is really just a demand for rigorous cites for your claims; and you’re failing to understand the most basic points that people have raised against what you said. For example, you’re still saying incredibly foolish shit like “The Jews believe in the Bible,” ignoring the long and illustrious history of rabbis who do not advocate a literal reading of the Bible.
You’re getting very vexed because this isn’t a board that countenances such foolishness easily. Many people are posting to contradict you simply because your point is so ridiculous–and another aspect of this board is people’s willingness to knock off the low-hanging fruit.
Step back, read the board a little more, try to hang a little higher, and you won’t face such a deluge.
If the responses so far have been(as you have so diplomatically stated) “stunningly stupid”, then I guess we have no chance whatsoever of approaching your level of debate.
Of course, this probably means we are too “stunningly stupid” to comprehend the wisdom you are imparting. I am so sorry you have wasted your time here-perhaps you’d have better luck elsewhere?
Left Hand: Please show a long list of Rabbis who claimed that the Sinai events are an allegory, not the Genesis events.