Impotent UN?

What the heck is wrong with the UN? It has no troubling calling down a gazillion condemnations on Israel at any given occasion, but the currently worst humanitarian crisis in the world; 10,000 killed, over a million displaced, starvation used as a policy, mass rapes, organized slavery and forced conversions now topped with a regular massacre of 136 men, and this just the latest crimes of the Sudanese state, and no end in sight to the war crimes. And what does the UN do? Take action? No way! It shuffles its feet and water down a resolution to the effect that the UN now “expresses solidarity with the country in overcoming the present situation” !

Why on earth would it chose to weaken (to the point of actually expressing solidarity with mass murderers!) an already weak response to such horrific crimes? What and who are those within the UN that lobbied for this weak resolution? And why? The US, apparently unsuccessful, wanted a stronger resolution - what is the European position on this? And before I lose the last respect for the UN, please someone tell me there is a very good reason behind this. Or should we brace ourselves for the UN sitting out another Rwanda?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3652521.stm

I saw this article earlier today on BBC’s web site and was apalled. 10’s of thousands dead. A million people displaced. Famine looming. Rape and torture. THere has to be a good reason for the UN to have done what its done. No idea what that might be. Maybe someone could shed some light. According to the Article the US tried to push through a tougher stand, but there isn’t any mention of why it didn’t go through. My assumption (which is undoubtably wrong) is that, for whatever reason, other nations on the UNSC wanted to do it this way.

-XT

The way I heard it was touched on farther down in the OP’s linked article:

As I understood it, the reasoning behind watering down the condemnation was to avoid giving the government an excuse for shunting away the UN observers and thus having an even freer hand with their attacks.

Rune: And what does the UN do? Take action?

I agree that the UN needs to condemn Sudan very strongly, although not knowing the current status of the peace talks I’m concerned that a hard-line stance at this point may possibly make matters worse.

Or should we brace ourselves for the UN sitting out another Rwanda?

The linked article also notes that Kofi Annan is concerned about precisely that parallel:

Besides issuing a stronger condemnation, what exactly is it that you are recommending that the UN do now?

Let me first say that I am a very strong proponent of the UN, and I think a great deal of criticism of the UN is misplaced by the failure to understand what the UN is capable of doing, or blaming on the UN the shortcomings of its members.

However, in this case, I completely agree with the OP that this is a terrible state of affairs that cannot be allowed to continue. The UN Human Rights Commission, which voted for this resolution, is an absolute joke, with an exceedingly poor record of objectively pointing out grave human rights absuses. All one has to do is take a look at the membership of that panel and it becomes obvious why this commission is exactly the wrong body to promote liberty: members include Sudan, Cuba, Egypt, China, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, Congo, and several other countries that are not nice places. Give me a freakin’ break!

I am not sure of the specifics in this case, but in general, the G-77 – the coalition of poor third world countries – have a history of not calling a spade a spade, either for self-interested reasons, or because they’ve had their arms twisted by countries like China (which the US tried to condemn many times in the past decade, only to have China threaten G-77 countries into blocking a vote on the resolution).

It is absolutely time to abolish the Human Rights Commission and start over with a panel in which the members can only be those with decent records of human rights.

Decent records of human rights as defined by whom?
For instance, should sentencing minors to death (something which is legally possible only in few nations) be a reason to exclude a country from the HRC? I assume you understand what I’m hinting at.
Who has the authority to define which country respect human rights and which country doesn’t? What is to be considered a human right? Is refusing to sign a convention on children rights enough to be denied membership, given that essentially al nations have signed it (see what I mean again, I suppose)?
Given that there are breaches to human rights in all countries, how is decided how important the breaches have to be for a country to be deemed uneligible for the HRC? How many people detained without trial in a military base are necessary for a nation to be excluded (still follow me?)?

The HRC is an instance where countries can debate about human right issues. Including countries which disagree about what human rights are. Including countries which blatantly disrespect the most basic ones. At least there are exchanges between these countries. There’s a forum to debate about these issues. Suppressing it would do no good.
And as for making it a select club of countries which appointed each other (which of course couldn’t be done within the frame of the UN) and would issue statements about human right violations in other countries, what would be the point? These countries already do so. What would be the authority of such a club? What could it do apart from writing some harsh words? It wouldn’t even allow a debate with the condemned countries. It would be totally pointless.
The UNHRC isn’t Amnesty International or anything like that. It’s not a club reserved to western-style democracies. It’s an international forum open to all countries where human right issues are discussed. A lot of people have a totally unrealistic perceptions of what this Commission is supposed to be and what can be expected from it.

If one wants to admit that the UN is basically a nice little debating society where the good guys and the bad guys can get together and have a chat, then that is fine. But then one cannot pretend as if its declarations carry any normative force.

You did not answer the question. Who decides what countries are worthy of belonging to the select panel? The USA must, surely improve its record before it is admitted. So who will be there? The Republic of San Marino and Luxemburg? And what are they going to do?

clairobscur is absolutely right. The UN is not a place where the self appointed superior nations belittle the designated savage nations. It is a place where all nations work together to exchange views and resolve differences.

I suggest the OP educate himself on this subject before posting any further. International efforts are indeed in place in Sudan, in particular Norway has, by invitation, been mediating betwen the two factions for a longer period. Sudan has been rippled by civil war for a long time (22 years?), dividing the country in two regions, north and south.

Just recently a final agreement between the two main parties was reached. What we are seeing now is factions and groups positioning themselves for what’s to come.

If anyone wants to put the finger on UN for something today it should be for Congo, where merely 2.000 UN soldiers are trying to contain local paramilitary groups from going havoc in one of the largest countries on earth. But Congo is not as important as, say, Somalia.

The UN is made up of member nations, including Denmark, and the body is no more perfect than our own governments, or, for what it’s worth, its weakest member states. In particular the UN is lacking a judicial body, but that’s not going to happen anyday soon.

Just to add to what has already been said above, it appears that you believe that a person, any person, is incapable of caring about human rights if they are citizens of a country which do not have a good human rights record. How is that for generalization?

The UN is not the Commission for Human Rights, nor the UNICEF, nor the UNDP, nor the High Commission for Refugees. A critic of the human right commission isn’t necessarily valid for the UNICEF, let alone for the UN as a whole.

Actually, there’s a judicial body, the international Court of Justice in The Hague. But its authority is limited to the cases which are presented before it by the involved countries. And a country can still refuse to comply when she disagrees with the ruling (Nicaragua), and it becomes an enforcement issue.

And anyway, even if there’s no way the rulings will be implemented when the countries involved are the USA and Nicaragua, as long as they are when the issue is betwen Erythrea and Ethiopia, it’s still a significant progress.

Fair enough. You can modify my statement to say that the declarations of the UNCHR do not carry any normative force. However, the same argument could at the very least be made about the GA (since all countries are allowed in, and their votes count equally), and possibly the SC as well.

Where are you getting that ‘any person’ nonsense from? It is not random philanthopists or upstanding people that are represented on the UNHRC, it is the the governments of those countries – governments that support and use political imprisonment, torture, religious repression, and even summary executions, in some cases.

I do not have a specific proposal on how it is to be accomplished, but I suppose one possible method is to have the International Court of Justice, or perhaps the Secretary General, judge whether a country is in substantial compliance with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. If you’re not a signatory or you are in breech of your obligations, you’re out.

If only Belgium, Cape Verde, and maybe Ghana make the cut, then so be it. I’d rather have a selective UN body offer a rational analysis of compliance UN-sponsored human rights treaties than the most sadistic outlaw countries in the work hijacking an important international panel for their own purposes.

When in doubt, deny all terms and definitions.

Clair, are you suggesting there aren’t gross human rights abuses?

In a word?

** VETO**

How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Love the Veto

sailor: The UN is not a place where the self appointed superior nations belittle the designated savage nations. It is a place where all nations work together to exchange views and resolve differences.

Yup. And unfortunately, it’s caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to exerting actual power. If the UN can’t actually enforce any of its decisions on its member countries, people sneer that it’s “futile” and “impotent” and “only a nice little debating society”. If, on the other hand, it does try to establish international institutions that have actual muscle for policing states’ actions, people start yelping about “one-world government” and “interference with sovereignty” and “detriment to our national interests”. (Witness the US’s resistance to acknowledging the authority of, say, the International Court of Justice or the proposed International Criminal Court to rule on US actions.)

For an international body thus perpetually scolded for simultaneously doing too little and doing too much, the UN is often actually remarkably effective and constructive. Consider, for example, the recent achievements of the UN’s International Atomic Energy Agency in uncovering and discouraging illegal nuclear proliferation activities by Iran, Libya, and Pakistan.

Ahh, what I love most about the SDMB. Little personal insults cleverly disguised as attempts at edifications. Thank you alien for your kind advice, insinuating others are stupid is of course the best way to accomplish such education.

I am aware of the long history of bloodshed in Sudan, which to my eye is mostly the responsibility of the government in the north, as well as recent peace initiatives, unfortunately Norwegian peace settlements have a regrettable tendency to fall apart – and it does seem like the Sudanese government is not now playing with open cards, or even half-hearted trying to live up to its end of a bargain, and is engaged in a shallow attempt to postpone critique (even if outright intervention is out of the question) by the world community.

It is my opinions that the UN (or rather UN member states) should have intervened with military power in Rwanda (instead of, as it were, withdrawing), and it is my opinion that UN should intervene with military power should any such situation again arise – as it now seems likely according to the UN secretary general (which I by the way, have the greatest respect for).

It is of course correct that it’s very valuable to have a place where different countries can meet and talk, and no one, even the once with the most abysmal human rights accord, are excluded. However if that is what the UN or the UN Human Rights Commission is supposed to be, then this is all it’s going to be – and in the very least it should not be expected to make decisions on anything. On the other hand if one is of the opinion that the UN ought to be more than a mere discussion club, and that decisions by the UN should carry weight and blatant disregard should be met with consequences, then this would never fly under such conditions, and will never be the case if it rests on some foundation of absolute moral relativity. Why should I respect the opinion of countries, such as Zimbabwe, Saudi Arabia or Sudan etc., when they endeavour to lecture on human rights and the correct conduct of the state? The mere suggestion is almost absurd, as would most sane people agree, and no less so for pointing out various deficiencies in e.g. the US of what undoubtedly by some are seen as grave by themselves but remain in comparison minor almost negligible imperfections. Of course nobody is perfect, but not recognising that some are more perfect than others is, in my book, where all creditability is lost. Before being invited to partake in the decisions of an UN Human Rights Commission, it is hardly unreasonable that countries themselves are being expected to live up to the most basic of human rights.

I don’t think Veto is the snake in the garden (re. the multitude of condemnations of Israel by countries with much worse crimes on their hands) Basically I suppose I’m just a little frustrated of the UN ever living up to its promise and what it, according to me, ought to be, or, I freely admit, simply be more like me and less like you.

Why the USA is doing nothing to prevent this? I mean they just had to invade Iraq to prevent the abuse of human rights going on there. Why doesn’t the USA intervene in Sudan now?

You know what Sailor, not every discussion need be about Iraq, and not every initiative should absolutely be left to the US, personally, and as a European, I’m more concerned with what Europe is doing, but if you can move your government to take action so much the better. Now that Iraq has been mentioned, I suspect one of the more negative consequences of the massive critique America is facing over Iraq will be an America more reluctant to engage in foreign intervention where such is, in my opinion, very much called for; Kosovo, Somalia, etc. This I find very regrettable, since there, at this time is none (Europe should be able – but is sadly about as impotent as the UN) other to take up such burdens.

There are such abuses. But it doesn’t answer the question : who is going to decide which country deserves to be represented and on what basis? What is “gross” exactly? Guatanamo appears quite “gross” to me, for instance.