In 1984, does Goldstein/The Botherhood exist?

In your opinion? Or was it all just a tool used by the party? If you buy Christopher Hitchens view, the character is based on Trotsky and therefore exists.

But I find the idea that none of it exists to be more frightening.

Winston: Does the Brotherhood exist?

O’Brien: That, Winston, you will never know. If we choose to set you free when we have finished with you, and if you live to be ninety years old, still you will never learn whether the answer to that question is Yes or No. As long as you live it will be an unsolved riddle in your mind.

at the end, i don’t think it did. The brotherhood was probably a creation of big brother, and if it was not it did not matter. It was too easy to find people. Then again i also came to the conclusion that eventually O’brien was going to eventually have to be sent to the thought police too, because even pretending there was resistance to big brother by their command, was thoughtcrime via doublethink. doubleplusungood situation.

I assumed that Goldstein and the Brotherhood were invented by the Party to flush out dissidents.

I think he did exist at one point. But by the time the events of the book take place it’s irrelevant whether he existed or not. It’d be like if I took over the world and warned people that I was the only thing protecting them from Hitler.

Moving thread from IMHO to Cafe Society.

The Botherhood exists as part of the nefarious Winnie-the-Pooh Underground

Hell, I wonder if Big Brother exists or ever existed (I suspect he & Goldstein both did but are both long-dead & any present videos are done by actors), or if there is really any war going on at all other than Oceania shelling its own lands to keep the fear level up.

Right: you’re left to wonder what IS reality, since MiniTruth has obfuscated it so much. We are even allowed to wonder that it may or may not be 1984 after all. The “wartime” regime has turned into something that as far as almost everyone’s concerned, is timeless.

Goldstein, ostensibly, was one of the Founding Fathers of IngSoc who now is reviled as a counterrevolutionary (very much a parallel to Trotsky in the Stalinist period), but even THAT could itself be a fabrication to plant doubt in those who may be unreliable. And I agree with pope_hentai, O’Brien will probably end up being a guest of MiniLove (and he probably knows it).

He existed initially I think. There’s a section where they talk about how the revolution was betrayed. I think that’s exactly it. At one point, Goldstein was part of the revolution party, but it got away from him and went awry, then he had to become an enemy of the revolution in order to properly subdue the Outer Party and the proles.

And I definitely think Oceania was bombing itself, as were Eastasia and Eurasia.

By the time of the events in the book, I’m not sure that there is an Eastasia or a Eurasia. Not only is the war a fiction, the allies/enemies are too.

I think it makes the entire novel much more creepy if you truly cannot tell whether Goldstein exists or not. I’m much more interested in the level of universal distrust that exists if the Brotherhood and Goldstein may have once existed, but are now primarily a trap for dissidents.

Orwell was not an insider but he nailed the feeling of day to day paranoia, according to people I’ve met who lived through Soviet Russia. The level of distrust of Government is inconceivable to us in the West.

Without wanting to take us into Great Debates territory, consider it in light of Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda. Every time a new video or audio recording is released, it is examined and declared authentic. But do you know for certain Bin Laden is alive? I don’t; I only have the word of experts whom I do not completely trust.

He lived through the purges and witchhunts of the Spanish Civil War: not only were there witchhunts of each side against the other, but also of parts of the “Republican” side against each other (as far as I know, this last kind did not exist in the “National” side in a systematic, organized fashion). Some of the stories I’ve heard sound like a really, really bad trip; for example, searching for some information on old family stories about my great-grandfather’s relationship with an Anarchist who at one point became Councilor of Justice led me to Andreu Nin (wiki in Spanish). While Orwel’s experiences during the war are said to be the basis of Animal Farm, I imagine they also influenced 1984.

Trotsky existed, but the Trotskyist threat of Stalin’s propaganda was largely imaginary.

My guess would be, Goldstein was real, but he was shot years ago. The Party keeps him alive as a symbol. The Brotherhood has no existence apart from Ministry of Love fronts. Some dissidents might spontaneously organize themselves into cells and call themselves “The Brotherhood,” but in Oceania they won’t remain secret for long, and, in the interim, will find it impossible to hook up with any like-minded cells in other cities; any they appear to find will be Ministry of Love fronts, and not even that is likely to happen.

E.g., from “Looking Back on the Spanish War” (1942):

And “The Prevention of Literature” (1946):

Here we see the roots of the “Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia” theme developed in Nineteen Eighty-Four.

As with everything else Orwell wrote, all this must be measured against the fact that he remained an avowed socialist to the end of his life; totalitarianism was his target, and he regarded it as inimical rather than indispensable to socialism.

Now that’s an interesting idea. You mean there’s actually no war, just the big three pretending to be at war with each other?

As for Goldstein, more interesting if you dont know. Wouldnt fit the tone of the book, nor be a very interesting point to actually know the truth. I think the same plot device was used in that Ira Levin book, “This Perfect Day”, but I read both that and “Nineteen Eighty-Four” years and years ago. Maybe I’m misremembering

We must be free from the tyranny of Big Rabbit!

I don’t think there are even separate states in any meaningful sense. There may well be a region of Earth governed by an entity that calls itself Eurasia, one that calls itself Oceania, and one that calls itself Eastasia - but all three are effectively the same state, coordinating economic, social, and military policy (that is, the staging of phony battles and so forth). Earth is goverened by a single state that artificially segments and isolates the population in order to facilitate governance.

Actually, I see nothing in the book to suggest Inner Party members are even on speaking terms (beyond a basic diplomatic level) with their counterparts in Eurasia and Eastasia, or that the battles are not real. At any rate, real flying bombs periodically land in London. It’s not that the states’ leaders are actually in conspiracy, but that they all consciously have the same aims, to keep things from changing; therefore they must all fight the war in earnest, but pull back at any moment that might present the danger of winning it.

Is the question about a specific, important individual who’s actually named Goldstein, or about the existence of a powerful entity actively working to overthrow Big Brother? If the former, it’s anyone’s guess, but if it’s the latter, the answer is emphatically yes: The entity actively working to overthrow Big Brother is Big Brother. The system is inherently self-destructive.

How so? O’Brien seems to believe the system is remarkably stable, and we’re given no reason to question his judgment. Though the use of agents provocateur, The Party identifies and disposes of dissidents quietly and efficiently. The Inner Party is thoroughly committed to the pleasures of oppression, the Outer Party tightly controlled, and the proles safely isolated from any form of power. The chilling thing about O’Brien’s great monologue is that he’s right - if there was ever any hope, it’s long gone. The future of humanity is a boot smashing a face. Forever.