Can you give an example of a government that wouldn’t be “mafia-like”, under your definition?
It started here, where Terr said the government was like the mafia by forcing him to pay for services he didn’t personally approve of.
“Protecting the right” is not the same as “granting the right”. The right exists. You may protect it or violate it, but it exists without your consensus.
Nah. It only operates using mafia-like policies.
It would be a government where I would voluntarily pay for services that it provides. Instead of providing the service, then extorting money from me to pay for it.
I disagree.
What brought these rights into existence? Are these rights for everyone, or just Americans? If everyone, why only humans?
The universe. Or “the Creator”. Or God. Your choice.
Every sentient being. So far, that’s limited to humans.
How do you know that?
Ok. “So far, it is limited to humans, AFAIK.”
If you would like to offer some kind of proof of non-human sentience, be my guest. If I am convinced, I will extend the rights to those beings as well.
Well, since I’m wealthy, I can afford my own private security to protect my stuff, and if someone did steal my stuff, I could track him down and get it back, plus compensation, and have my thugs punish him for his wrong doing. So why should I be forced to pay for police and courts? I don’t need them and get no benefit from them. Sure, not everyone is in the same position as me, but that’s their own fault. Why should I be forced to pay for their laziness?
Is that what Terr means by “mafia-style” government?
How does it exist? Can it even exist in any meaningful sense without protection? If simply claiming you have a right to life won’t prevent another from taking it, what good is it?
You mean, like democracy, where people vote on what the government does? And you’re free to leave if you don’t like it? That sounds a lot like the government we have.
Since you didn’t describe any “government” in that paragraph, no, it isn’t.
It exists, as in “it exists”. How do I exist? How do you exist? If I can kill you at any time, can you claim that you exist?
I can protect my rights myself, or I can get together with a group of like-minded people and we will protect those rights together. Or I can support a government that protects those rights. But if it fails, or if the group fails, the final responsibility is mine to protect those rights.
That’s the difference between those rights and the “granted rights” that do not exist without the grantor. Like the “right to education”. Look at the above paragraph and try to apply it to that so-called “right”.
Which part of “It would be a government where I would voluntarily pay for services that it provides.” was not clear?
Just because you voted for it doesn’t mean that I have to pay for it. Should I explain what the definition of “voluntary” is?
So you reserve the power to decide which animals get rights, in the absence of evidence?
Police and courts aren’t government?
Those rights are granted though. Your right to life is granted by everyone who agrees not to kill you. Your right to property is granted by everyone who agrees not to steal your stuff. We’ve agreed those are rights and codified them as societal conventions and created governments to enforce them. They do not come from the universe, or god, or whatever. The only exist because we’ve agreed they exist.
Along the same lines, if we agree that there’s a right to education and create a system that provides universal education, then it exists. If society didn’t provide it, then responsibility falls to the individual and/or their parents, same as the rights that you consider natural. There’s no difference.
What part of “you’re free to leave” was not clear? You’re choosing to stay, so you’re paying for it voluntarily. Should I explain what the definition of “voluntary” is?
No it isn’t. That’s what self-defense is for.
No it isn’t. That’s what shooting the trespassers is for.
As I pointed out, I disagree.
And since these concepts are kind of axiomatic, it is pretty silly to argue about the validity of systems grown out of the axioms if you cannot agree on the axioms.
So people who are unable to defend themselves have no right to life?
The part where I own property here and there is no contract that I signed that says you can evict me if I don’t agree.
“We protect the neighborhood. Because of us, your store is not burglarized or burned down, and no one breaks your knees or kidnaps your children or rapes your wife. So fork over the protection money. You’re choosing to stay, so you’re paying for it voluntarily.”