A Q for Libertarian on Libertaria

In Libertaria where services are created by some collective of people who want to create them for those who wish to pay for them. For example, lets say a police force whereby those people who wish to buy into their services do so and those who do not feel they need their services do not. Let me know if this is a poor example.

Okay, how do we account for the “people are stupid” factor? Does Libertaria simply accept that some people are stupid and hence are deserving of the fate they get?

Example, I gave a guy a speeding ticket today (120 KM/H in a 80 KM/H zone sigh ). He went ballistic and with choice language wished that I and the rest of the police force didn’t exist. However, I am very confident there were we not to exist the country would be flooded with crime, so he sees no value to our service until it is actually needed. I.e. I am pretty sure that if we were disbanded in the ensuing orgy of crime he would be begging for the “boys in blue” to come back to work.

So, what do you perceive as wrong with recognize that there are some services (primarily emergency services) that are simply in everybody best interest and should simply exist and people should pay for them? Again, how would you account for the multitude of people who don’t recognize the value of a service until they need it?

P.s. You are not allowed to cop out and say there would be no crime in Libertaria. :wink:

Wow, great question, Glitch! That’s exactly the sort of thing that libertarian government is for, protection of the rights of its citizens. Since rights accrue from property, the rights of the road owner must be defended by his government. If he has set the speed limit for his road to 80 mph, then a person driving at 120 mph is committing breach, assuming he isn’t committing trespass, either way, a serious crime in Libertaria.

Having one’s rights defended is a prudent thing to do, but Libertaria doesn’t force prudence upon people. It is concerned solely with those who have contracted its services voluntarily.

I suppose you could account for the multitude of people who don’t recognize the value of a service until they need it by the fact that they have always taken the service for granted. Kinda like spoiled kids. It’s hard to recognize the value of a dollar if you have dollars thrown at you no matter how recklessly you waste them.

So, hypothetically, do you suppose that Libertaria would be swamped with crime? My impressions is that people are dumb and would hope that somebody else would pay for it but not me because I don’t need it.

Perhaps a police force is a poor example because as I already noted as soon as the crime wave started most everybody would be begging for a police force.

So, how about other example? How many people would pay for an ambulance service? Probably very few since most people figure they’ll never need it. What does that mean for the quality of life in Libertaria since the end result would be likely no ambulance service? If you get in an emergency medical situation you die? Is that desirable in order to simply protect people from the gov’t enforcing prudence on them? Even if it were commonly payed for what about the remainder, do you think that these people would in fact be being punished for a poor judgement call or lack of proper planning? Isn’t reasonable to recognize that human beings do not always plan for their best interests because some problems are not always plainly obvious and so some services are simply most wise?

A police force is a good example, glitch. When police patrol for lawbreakers, they are not protecting one person as opposed to another, they are making everyone in the community a little safer. If you don’t help pay for the police, you are benefitting from their existance at other’s expense, even if you never have to call them. Ambulance service is more individual-based (and often privately run).

Lib, I don’t get this bit about “road owners”. Some toll roads are privately owned, but they are major freeways, and the state still had to sieze the land on which they were built. I can’t imagine city streets being privately owned, block by block. Being forced to pay a toll and/or being guilty of trespassing everywhere you go? This is freedom?

Just to clarify one thing - most Libertarians are NOT in favor of privatizing the police force. That’s a radical opinion, even in the Libertarian ranks.

The foundation of libertarianism is that the government’s proper functions are:

[list]
[li]Maintenance of a military, to protect us from outside agression.[/li][li]Maintenance of a police force, to protect us from internal agression.[/li][li]Maintenance of courts of law, to objectively settle disputes among citizens.[/li]
Thus, in ‘mainstream libertaria’, there is still a U.S. military, various state and federal law enforcement agencies, a supreme court, local courts, and laws against everything from outright violence to things like fraud, libel, etc. And the Tort system still exists, so you can still sue people who do you wrong.

What goes away are victimless crimes like drug use (but NOT impaired driving, or other ways in which drugged or drunk people can endanger others), prostitution, etc. No federal welfare, no Social Security, no federal organizations like OSHA, HUD, HEW, FEMA, DEA, NASA, EPA (at least scaled down), etc. In other words, an end to activist government that seeks to manipulate and modify society.

Isn’t that the same mentality that gave the world kings and serfs? Hardly what I would call a free society.

What if the landowner welcomes the terrorist with the nuclear device? Isn’t he within his rights to do so? Even if the intent is clear (to blow up everything in a 100 mile radius) unless an actual ** act of force or fraud ** has been committed against those outside of the domain of the landowner the government is powerless. Oh, and this person lives on the coast, maybe in the Battery of NYC, so no transport issues arise.

Isn’t “internal” a little problematic here? As a landowner I might disallow speeding, but allow murder and rape. The police force would then only be allowed to intervene when one landowner violates the laws of another. Do all individuals have rights (life, liberty, pursuit of caffinated beverages) that each landowner is forced to abide by? Who decides (and then forces everyone else to abide) what those rights are? What about the “tyranny of the majority”? Maybe homosexuality, as not “natural” and thereby forced/coerced, is outlawed by the majority. And it doesn’t really answer the question of road ownership as each landowner would hafta give up some of his property to a common entity (the government) for the police to patrol.

What would be the type of decision the court could deliver? Could they assign punishment or only determine whether the aggrieved has passed muster? Wouldn’t the court be compelled to use the aggrieved definition of offense, or would all landowners be forced to adhere to a common definition? Its my land, but my neighbor’s loud music is infringing on my land. And if we allow for “common law” would the courts be bound by the will of the people or would they be above the law and unaccountable to the citizens they pass judgement over?

Poor, poor hippies. If they spent half as much energy kicking their drug habits as they did inventing societies to justify it, we would all be much better off.

Sorry to disagree, but driving impaired is a victimless crime. Mowing down a sidewalk full of pedestrians might not be, but if a drunk/stoned driver gets his car home and doesn’t hurt anybody in the process where’s the crime? How is that any different then the crackhead who sits in house. Neither is hurting anyone other then themselves. The only difference is that the drunk driver will wake up hungover and the crackhead will be breaking into your house and killing you for your VCR. As for endangerment, last time I looked 80% of accidents (taken from a sign on a highway with traffic stats in my state) are caused by SOBER people. What about them?
Hate to be such a poop, but Libertarianism, like most “utopias” that haven’t passed society’s Darwinistic gauntlet, would never work. Not that I don’t think it has its good points. I’ve always felt that:

1 Libertarian + Reality = 1 Republican - Jesus

But that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Okey dokey, can I play too?

First off, we in America do not live in a representative democracy regardless of what Bill Clinton wanted. Back when the Constitution was authored, it was decided that we would be a Constitutional Republic. We are not a society governed by the majority rule, but by the rule of law. For more information, check this out:.
The New American, issue 23

This is exactly why the Founding Fathers refused to create a democracy in America. They recognized the mistakes that had been made in both Greek and Roman societies, and learned from them. In the Declaration of Independence, it is explicitly stated that all men have certain inalienable rights (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) that are not created by man, but handed down by God Himself (or insert your deity here, if you have one). A right created by man can be revoked by man as well, and in a democracy the “tyranny of the masses” would eventually strip one of his or her rights. In a Constitutional Republic, the scope of government is severely restricted so that those very rights cannot be taken away. Libertarians are not anarchists. Democracy leads to tyranny. Libertarians just ask for the government to stick within its bounds.

JamesCarrol: Well, you did a good job of setting up strawmen and knocking them down. But nothing you said is relevant to ‘mainstream’ libertarianism. Where did you get the idea that landowners were each soveriegns who could allow things like murder?

Read Hobbes’ “Leviathan” for a good explanation of what government is for (although he was not a Libertarian).

Basically, the idea is this: People recognize that if they were allowed to exercise their natural rights (a natural right being anything you are capable of doing), then they could kill, steal, etc. However, so could everyone else. And the disadvantage of everyone else doing the same thing to you outweighs the advantage you get from unrestricted freedom (You would live in a state of ‘constant struggle of man against man’). So, we agree to enter into a social contract, which outlines which rights must be curtailed (The right to kill people, etc), and which ones are inalienable (the right to liberty, the pursuit of happiness, etc). This contract is entered into for our own benefit.

Now, to prevent the other guys from cheating, we invoke a sovereign, or a governmental power that can be objective and has the ability to enforce the social contract. This is why private police forces are such a bad idea - they aren’t objective. The whole point to government is that it’s an agency that we detach from ourselves and allow to enforce our social contract.

But government steps over the line when it stops being objective. When it gets involved in the market, picking winners and losers, deciding who gets taxed, and how much, and for who’s benefit. It steps over the line when it creates laws that do not protect people from each other, but from themselves. It steps over the line when it seeks to manipulate and force individuals to conform to a specific notion of what the ‘right’ kind of society should be. It steps over the line when it decides that some people must be forced at gunpoint to pay for the welfare of others.

Now, I happen to be a fan of many activities that government does. I just don’t think it should be the government that engages in them. Government is unique in that we give it our sanction to use violence to support its ends. That makes it FAR too powerful to allow it to worm its way into our everyday lives. Power corrupts. Government is the most important invention man ever created, but it’s also the most dangerous. Just as you shouldn’t use a machine gun to open cans at home, you shouldn’t use the government to determine whether or not you should put handicap-friendly rails in your bathroom.

Government is also a blunt instrument. Top-down control of something as complex as a modern industrial economy is simply not possible. The Law of unintended consequences tells us that most government ‘solutions’ will either backfire, or have consequences that no one expected due to ripple effects. In contrast, a market-driven economy uses negative feedback, an inherently stable mechanism. If the demand for something goes up, the price rises. The information transmitted by rising prices stimulates increased production, research, competition, and many other factors, until prices stabilize. That in turn causes other ripples, which causes yet more. An increase in demand for pencils can wind up effecting the price of beer, in unpredictable, almost chaotic ways. Central commands cannot keep up. It’s simply impossible. It’s like the difference between balancing a pencil on your finger or letting it hang down. One way is inherently stable, the other is unstable.

So government is a bad tool to use for micro-management. It shouldn’t decide how much we should charge for goods. It shouldn’t decide how many taxis should be in a city, or how much people should pay for rent. It’s simply incompetant for such tasks.

Now, as a pragmatic Libertarian, I think it’s silly to sit out on a limb and argue radical notions like privatizing the police. This is what alienates people from the Libertarian position. And even for those Libertarians that believe in it would have to agree that if they ever got into power it would be one of the LAST reforms to make. So they should stop talking about the extreme fringe ideas, and concentrate on the blatant governmental screwups and infringements of our rights. A much better argument would be, “Do we need the DEA? Is OSHA really improving worker safety, and if it is are we getting good value from it? Are the poor really being helped by the welfare state?” And, “Is Social Security really the best mechanism to provide for our retirement?” These are the kinds of questions that have good, quantifiable answers (or at least valid arguments on both sides), and it’s in these areas that Libertarians have the best chance of convincing people that maybe big government isn’t the panacea they think it is.

Hobbes also had a pretty harsh view of human nature, which is why he suggested the need for an objective government. The classic Hobbesism carted out in nearly every introductory philosophy class is that when human beings live in a state of nature everyone’s life is “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.” Obviously in the 350 years since Hobbes wrote Leviathan we’ve learned a bit more about human nature and we can readily point to any number of cultures that exist without the horrid conditions described as living in a state of nature. Of course you would be right in arguing that in the small, subsistance type cultures I’m referring to there is in fact no real government at all.

The staunch anti-libertarian might just as easily substitute property for government in the above statement and let his/her argument proceed from there. Such as, look what the notion of property entails: ownership vs. disownership, my rights vs. the rights of others. The individual becomes the end all be all in moral equations and little concern is given for the moral value of community. Property is indeed a dangerous proposal and one that no doubt Thomas Jefferson realized when he considered Hobbes’ natural rights: “Life, liberty and property” and opted for “Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” as a more accurate list of those true inalienable rights.

The whole suggestion of the Tragedy of the Commons (Hardin 1968) opperates under the assumption that we are by nature self-serving, psychological egoists (Hobbes perspective in a nutshell). Some anti-libertarians would say, "Sorry, Hardin, Hobbes and Libertarians, you’ve all put the cart before the horse. We are not by nature self-serving psychological egoists, we become this way once we allow artificial values (read: money or perhaps land ownership) to enter into the way we think of the world.

I searched and searched my post for what might have led you to draw that conclusion, and I am lost.

Let’s see, if the driver is using the road without the owner’s permission, then the government arrests him for trespassing. If he is speeding on the owner’s road, then the government arrests him for breach. In either case, the criminal is removed from society. Since, in general, all such initiators of force are removed from Libertarian society, I cannot understand drawing the conclusion that Libertaria would be “swamped with crime”.

Amazingly, you find the proliferation of dumb people to be a preemptive concern for your own self-determination, but not a concern in a context where those same pathetically dumb people decide which politicians will dole out your rights with scribbles and whims. That’s what’s happening right now.

Moreover, you haven’t defined the mystical quality that imbues elected politicians and their appointed bureaucrats with the sense and scruples to decide the fate of those dumb people any better than they can themselves. If such a large percentage of people are dumb, then it stands to reason that a goodly portion of them in your present society in fact end up governing you! You seem to assume a priori that governors are saints and geniuses who will do what is in the best interest of all, when the track record suggests that many governors are self-serving scoundrels who know that dumb people are easily manipulated; hence, campaign after campaign of promises to make the schools better, reduce taxes, end poverty, and make society safe. I don’t know how old you are, but these promises have been made toward every election since I can remember.

I don’t think you ever established that a crime wave would start. In Why Crime Declines, Bruce Benson, DeVoe Moore Distinguished Research Professor in the department of economics at Florida State University, cites a 1980s case study of the effects of private security in “Starrett City, a 153-acre complex in a high-crime area of Brooklyn, with 56 residential buildings containing 5,881 apartments and about 20,000 racially and ethnically diverse but largely middle-income residents. Starrett City had only 6.57 reported crimes per 1,000 population, compared to 49.86 for the 75th precinct in which Starrett City is located.”

In a policy paper called Private Police: A Note, the Ludwig Von Mises Institute points out the common sense reason why people naturally desire protection as reasonably close to their own interests as possible, i.e., they value their property. Citing a typical jewelry store, the paper notes, “The theft of its wares is a crime under the law. But the jewelry store does not rely exclusively—or even primarily—on the majesty of the state’s enforcement of that law for its own security. The jewelry store engages the services of manifold private protection outfits: it takes out an insurance policy on its gems, which are kept under a locked glass display case, which can only be opened by an employee, who is under the ever-vigilant eye of video monitoring equipment, and who watches the customers with the aid of convex mirrors, and keeps the store’s cash in a locked vault, which is in a back room, which is in turn locked at closing time, and the store’s alarm activated as the employees leave and the armed night watchmen arrive. All of these are provided by private companies in the business of providing “security,” and all of which should give pause to those who consider the enforcement of law uniquely the franchise of the government.”

Actually, private ambulance service is alive and well already, and competes quite effectively against municiple services, except where those municipalities exercise their government monopoly muscle. American Medical Response, Careline, and MedTrans are three of the biggest (source). Most private ambulance services get their revenue, not from the patients they transport, but from the hospitals they transport the patients to. For example, Kaiser Permanente in Denver paid AMR $600 million dollars over five years for its services in 1998. In fact the competition between AMR and Phoenix-based Rural/Metro was so good that it resulted sometimes in two ambulances being sent to the scene in Aurora, so that the city felt compelled to step in and stop one of them from responding. The city said it caused “confusion”.(source).

Aside from clearing up the misconception of how private emergency medical response works, I’d like to address in general the idea that, given people’s dumbness (which hypothesizers seem to posit as ubiquitous in Libertaria but minimal in America) their carelessness for their own welfare means that they will stop providing themselves health care, police protection, and no doubt food. If they are too dumb to know that they need the most basic of human services, then there is no reason to believe that they are smart enough to eat. You could argue that food distribution would dry up because people won’t be willing to feed themselves until they are starving.

Don’t forget that, implicit in the very implication of a hypothetical Libertaria, you have already posited people who have the good sense to hire a government. You are basically saying that people have reasoned thus: “Well, I paid good money to have my rights protected, now I believe I will lay down and die.”

I refer you to a page on Liberty Haven’s website with links to, oh, a couple hundred articles on why charitable medical care is less likely to kill people than socialized care. As Kenneth McDonald points out in one of the articles, *The True Charity *, “Helping other people to independence is the true charity.”

Actually, forcing prudence on people is expensive to almost everyone in almost every way. In a policy paper called Why Health Care Costs Too Much, the Cato Institute observes that the “increasing share of medical bills paid by third-party payers (insurance companies and governments) and the disastrous consequences are documented. Patients overuse medical resources since those resources appear to be free or almost free. Producers of medical equipment create new and more expensive devices, even if they are of only marginal benefit, since third-party payers create a guaranteed market. Attempts to rein in those costs have led to a blizzard of paperwork but proven ineffective in controlling costs.” This is primarily because, as the same paper notes, there is no incentive to economize. “Because patients pay an average of only 23 cents on each dollar of medical expense, there is only a weak linkage between any consumer’s use of medical resources and the payments made by that consumer. When the direct linkage between use of medical facilities and payment is broken, medical consumers lose their incentive to economize on their use of medical resources.”

A major third-party player is Medicare. Medicare was enacted in 1965. "It wasn’t long before it became plain that the cost overruns on Medicare were going to be spectacular. Between 1966 and 1968, everything went up; hospital bills, doctors’ fees, laboratory charges, insurance premiums, and even–though more modestly- nurses’ and orderlies’ wages. (At Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, for example, nurses’ wages went up 100 percent between 1959 and 1969; but over the same period interns’ salaries went up 1650 percent!) Over the decade of the 1960s, hospital charges rose four times as fast as all other items in the Consumer Price Index; physicians’ fees rose twice as fast. And that increase was heavily concentrated in the brief period after the introduction of Medicare. The rate of inflation of hospital costs, for example, increased from an average of 6.9 percent between l950 and 1960 to an annual average of 14.8 percent between March, 1966, and March, l970. By 1969, some hospitals were charging as much as $150 a day for basic care–in effect for little more than a bed, food, and attention from a nurse when she had a moment. John de Lury, of the New York sanitation workers’ union, gave a state legislative hearing a harrowing illustration of what the full cost could come to:

"A ten-year-old boy was admitted to the hospital at 3:20 A.M. The boy died at 10:34 the same night. The family of this child was charged $105.80 for drugs, $184.80 for X rays, $220.00 for inhalation therapy, $655.50 for laboratory work. The total bill for the child was $1717.80.

"With the government reimbursing whatever hospitals and doctors charged, the cost of both Medicare and Medicaid spiraled out of control. Less than ONE YEAR after Medicare came into operation, Congress had to increase by 25 percent the Social Security tax budgeted to pay for it. The actuarial estimates of both utilization and cost presented to Congress by the Administration when the program was under construction proved to be hopelessly understated. Cost overruns, projected over the next twenty-five years, added up to a stupendous $131 billion.

“Medicaid was soon in worse trouble than Medicare. Two reporters, generally sympathetic to the program, wrote that “starting in late l966 Medicaid hit New York’s medical marketplace like a flash-flood.” In January, 1967, the federal budget, assuming that Medicaid would be in operation in forty-eight states by the end of the year, predicted that it would cost $2.25 billion. A year later, however, although only thirty-seven states were receiving Medicaid, the actual cost came to $3.54 billion.” (source)

Are you saying that if you lead your own life responsibly, that you are, by that action, “punishing” someone else?

Sorry, I don’t buy it. As Dr. Leonard Peikoff observed at a Town Hall Meeting on the Clinton Health Plan in 1993, “The right to life, e.g., does not mean that your neighbors have to feed and clothe you; it means you have the right to earn your food and clothes yourself, if necessary by a hard struggle, and that no one can forcibly stop your struggle for these things or steal them from you if and when you have achieved them. In other words: you have the right to act, and to keep the results of your actions, the products you make, to keep them or to trade them with others, if you wish. But you have no right to the actions or products of others, except on terms to which they voluntarily agree.”

Remember that in Libertaria, you are free to socialize any aspect of your life that you desire with other volunteers who feel the same way you do. What you are not “free” to do is force others into your schemes. In Libertaria, freedom is defined as the absence of coercion and fraud.

Sure. I guess. But it also seems reasonable that you cannot plan for other people any better than they can for themselves; further, it seems reasonable that they know what aspects of their own lives require that they seek out expertise elsewhere. Unless, of course, they’re more stupid than spit. And if they are, do you like the idea that they’re in fact electing the people nowadays who will plan your life for you?

What if the owner of the road says “No Blacks Allowed”. It’s the owner’s road, after all and he can set condidtions for use, as long as he’s not commiting violence or fraud against another citizen.

Competing roads would be problematic at best, since getting the land rights, especially in a Libertarian society (where property rights are more respected) would take considerable effort.

And in any case, it takes years to build a road. What do Black people do in the meanwhile, if the owner refused to sell his road or allow Black people to use it? (Let’s assume the road is the only major thoroughfare like I-70)

I can’t believe that there aren’t going to be bigots in Liberteria (there are bigots everywhere!), so this is at least possible.

How would Libertaria address this?

Fenris, who’s always meant to ask this question, but didn’t think it was worth a thread of it’s own.

{fixed code. --Gaudere}

[Edited by Gaudere on 05-12-2001 at 12:54 PM]

I feel like such a dumbass for favoring statism! So far in this thread I’ve learned so much about myself and my country!
[ul][li]elected officials make decisions arbitrarily and without public review: “…those same pathetically dumb people decide which politicians will dole out your rights with scribbles and whims. That’s what’s happening right now.”[]a system of elected officials can’t be self correcting: “…the track record suggests that many governors are self-serving scoundrels who know that dumb people are easily manipulated; hence, campaign after campaign of promises to make the schools better, reduce taxes, end poverty, and make society safe.”[]critics of libertarianism are deluded imbeciles, unaware of any problems inherent in their current governmental structure: “You seem to assume a priori that governors are saints and geniuses who will do what is in the best interest of all…”[]fans of free election just haven’t seen enough of the consequences to know better: “I don’t know how old you are, but these promises have been made toward every election since I can remember.”[]and even when critics of libertarianism explicitly reject (at least in this thread) a position, it can be used against them: “…given people’s dumbness (which hypothesizers seem to posit as ubiquitous in Libertaria but minimal in America)…”[/ul][/li]Boy, Lib, you’ve sure opened my eyes!

Bigotry isn’t illegal in Libertaria. Of course, coercion and fraud are illegal despite whether the movitvation is bigotry, hate, robbery, or something else. It is possible that in Libertaria, a road owner might not allow black people on her road. In fact, she may be as capricious as she wants. She might not allow people she thinks are ugly. She might not allow people who play chess on Tuesday, people who own dogs, or people who drink Pepsi. She can turn away heterosexuals, Republicans, Christians, tall men, and anyone else she pleases. She can, if she wishes, treat the road as her private driveway.

As for what sort of economic and marketing sense she might have, I invite all who read this to participate in this poll. Let’s find out how her road will fare in a libertarian Straightdopia.

Xeno, thank you for never having published a paraphrase of the Bible. :wink:

You’re welcome, of course, although I wonder if you meant to express satisfaction that I haven’t tried to interpret or clarify the bible? If so, please rest assured that I would never try and interpret (as a body of work) any such collection of contradictory and obscure elements. However, I feel no compunctions regarding the examination of remarks made in the course of public debate. :smiley:

In the interest of fairness, though, let’s see where I may have misinterpreted your remarks:[ul][li]"…politicians will dole out your rights with scribbles and whims. That’s what’s happening right now." Hmmm. Seems like you’re saying that we elect autocrats who are empowered to “dole out” rights to us, and we aint got no say about it.[]"…many governors are self-serving scoundrels who know that dumb people are easily manipulated; hence, campaign after campaign of promises…" If your point is NOT that this is an aspect of human nature to which statism is inherently vulnerable and is less well equipped to deal with than libertarianism, then please clarify.[]“You seem to assume a priori that governors are saints and geniuses who will do what is in the best interest of all…” Nope, doesn’t sound at all like you think we’re imbeciles.[/sarcasm][]“I don’t know how old you are [etc.]” Not patronizing in any way.[/more sarcasm][]"([dumbness] which hypothesizers seem to posit as ubiquitous in Libertaria but minimal in America)…" Please show me where this has been directly stated or even implied.[/ul][/li]
best regards,

xeno

PS: I took your poll. Hope my response helps.

Lib, I appreciate the answer, but I didn’t phrase my question very well at all. You gave me a great answer, but I asked the wrong question!:slight_smile: Let me try again, if you don’t mind giving another answer.

Right now, roads are considered a public good and restriction of roads could easily mean restriction of freedom. I don’t care so much about the bigotry angle as I do about my freedom to come and go as I please in Libertaria. If Ms RoadOwner buys the road in front of my house and then says “No person with a bald spot can pass” she’s restricted my freedom tremendously. How do I leave my property? What if she charged outrageous fees? If her road is the only way I can get to work, or to the store or to my house, I’m in even more trouble.

Currently, publicly held roads allow everyone more-or-less unrestricted passage. In Libertaria, I don’t see a way to stop an inevitable land buy up, essentially making certain areas prisoners or tresspassers. Have you played the game “GO”? If so, you see what I mean.

I know that, were I uncompassionate, I’d certainly try to buy a small ring of land surrounding a community, and then charge exorbinatant fees to let people cross my land to get in and out of their property.

(Again, I realize new roads might be built, but what do I do in the meantime? And in the case of her buying the street where I live, there is no physical way to build another road unless everyone else’s house is bulldozed) There’s clearly coersion going on if she does so, but it would seem to be coersion that the state would be helpless to prevent. It’s her road, after all. I know a Libertarian state wouldn’t seize private property for the “public good”. That way leads to Communism.

How would Libertaria address the issue of restriction of movement in this sort of circumstance?

Sorry about the last question’s lack of focus.

Fenris

Fenris:

Oh, sure, I don’t deny that that could possibly happen, despite how small the probability. (As Hayek showed, it is no advantage in a free-market to strip your potential customers of their means to buy.) If you were to be so unfortunate as to be surrounded on every side by heartless egomaniacs who’ve adopted Genghis Khan’s philosophy, “It’s not enough that I succeed; other men must fail,” then you’d pretty much be up shit creek until you could muster the wits and courage to escape your confines.

You’d be kinda like a kid in South Central L.A.

(Please note that I’ve apologized to you in the poll thread for carelessly mischaracterizing your position on libertarianism.)

Libertarian: The other posters have hit on the same problem I have with ‘unfettered’ libertarianism. It can lead to all kinds of social injustices.

For example, what should happen in your world if, say, Pat Robertson buys my local airport and then demands that anyone who wants to fly out of the city must receive biblical indoctrination. Is ‘caveat emptor’ ALWAYS a reasonable policy? When I move to a city, do I have to personally make sure that the infrastructure I use is safe from being abused in this way? Must I demand to see the lease on the airport to know that I’m not moving into a city where I’ll suddenly have my air travel cut off?

What happens to the value of MY property if someone buys the main road leading into my subdivision and then starts charging a toll that didn’t exist before? Must I enter into a gigantic web of legal agreements with owners of the infrastructure every time I engage in the smallest amount of commerce?

What if I live in a valley, and someone buys the only road out, am I now a prisoner to their whim? And if it’s my own fault because I never considered that possibility, as I’ve heard some Libertarians claim, what about my children? Should they grow up into virtual slavery simply because I was stupid?

These may be extreme examples, but others can be found all around us. The person who builds a home because of the view, and then has someone build a skyscraper across the street.

Then there are all the transitional issues - if we change to a Libertarian government, what happens to all the people who live in areas that will now be subject to this kind of manipulation? If I live in a valley today, and suddenly the only road out of town is put on the market by the new Libertarian government, who do I go to for compensation when my proprty value plummets due to the risk of isolation?
Isn’t this a taking? Aren’t libertarians against that?

The market place works best when there is a direct connection between buyers and sellers, with few affected parties on the periphery of the exchange. But in some cases there are true, honest-to-god market failures. A good example is pollution - polluting the environment is a cost of doing business, but it’s very hard for the market to take care of this, because the damage from pollution is spread over so many people that any one individual’s damages are so small that it’s not worth trying to get compensation. So a lot of these externalities to the transaction of buying and selling energy go unpaid-for, and that’s a failure of the market. The other problem with the market has to do with resources that are finite, but desired by many, many people. The airwaves, for example. Ayn Rand advocated ‘squatter’s rights’ for bandwidth, which only showed how ignorant she was of the technical issues involved.

So some of us on the Libertarian side of the fence aren’t as radical as you are, and recognize that government has a responsibility to ensure the smooth working of society. That may mean public roads, right-of-way laws, regulations over industries that are involved in market failures, etc.

But we both agree that government as it exists today in the U.S. and Canada has gone way, way farther than that.

Well, pollution is a coercion (vandalism and trespass), so no pollution is allowed in Libertaria.

As to the extreme examples, I do not deny that anything is possible. But not just in Libertaria, though. Going from sheer memory, the number of pages in the U.S. Code increases something like five pages per day. Do you know what all’s in there? :wink: Here, there is eminent domain and asset forfeiture that make possible all your horror scenarios at the hands of agents of government. They have the really big guns behind them. And they own everything, including the land you live on.

But there is one important difference about Libertaria that all the hypotheticals ignore — from the hopelessly demented man who owns all the water in the neighborhood to the giant sentient squids who come to claim their property — Libertaria forces no one to be governed against his will. You are free to form as socialist a society as you like.

To clear up a matter, however, libertarianism does not lead to social injustice. It provides a context of peace and honesty so that free people can pursue their own happiness in their own way. I know of nothing more just. I respect the philosophical positions you hold, Sam, as well as the positions of those who oppose me here. I would not impose mine upon you or them, however.

While I’m thinking about it, I do hope that those of you who posit the extreme hypotheticals realize that it could just as well go the other way. That is, people who are now oppressed, either by virtue of their race, sexual orientation, or just general lack of political clout, have unimpeded license to achieve whatever they wish to the limits of their abilities, free from the coercion and fraud of all the bigots. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, to stop entrepreneurs from opening airports that compete with Pat Robertson’s airport, just as there are now universities that compete with Oral Roberts.

Well, in fact there are lots of reasons why another entrepreneur might not be able to open an airport to compete with Pat Robertson - there may not be open land available, for example. Airports require lots of space.

And you won’t get me to sit here and defend all the practices of government - I’m well aware of the abuses that government makes along the same lines. Which is why, of course, the U.S. has a ‘takings’ law - if the government does something that causes you financial harm, you can be compensated. Or rather you *should be. One of my complaints with government as it exists today is that it manages to sidestep the ‘takings’ laws all the time.

But let’s forget about generalities, let’s talk specifics. How about the airwaves? In Libertaria, there is no FCC. So I set up my 500 watt radio station, and start broadcasting my views. My neighbor doesn’t like that, so he sets up a 50,000 watt broadband noise generator that wipes out my signal, and also the signals of anyone else. What to do now? Does my right to broadcast my radio signals outweigh his right to blast his beloved noise? What if he claims that he’s a member of the ‘church of noise’, and my terrible modulated signals are interfering with his worship of chaos? Who’s right and who’s wrong?

Ayn Rand’s squatter’s rights are ridiculous. I fail to see why the first person to build a gigantic 500,000 watt pink noise generator that blasts crap across the entire spectrum should suddenly become the owner of it all. So how are you going to deal with that?

And how are you going to deal with the smaller radio frequency violations that go on all the time? If I build my own TV which leaks so much RF that my Neighbor’s pacemaker starts causing him to do a foxtrot, am I at fault? Where do you draw the line? How does a free market handle all this stuff?