Well, I think one of the problems with people trying to create an “ideal world” is that they tend to force people to conform to their view of what “ideal” looks like, whether they like it or not.
But I do think it’s not great to have a society where everyone or even a significant number of people are their own little self-contained island. IMHO it turns people into angry little narcissists who get frustrated if everything isn’t as perfect as they would like. It also warps their reality because they only interact with the world through curated information streams instead of actual experiences.
But for people who live in dense urban environments, reality consists almost exclusively of humans, their works, and the consequences of their works, good and bad.
I totally recognize @msmith537’s comments you cite in myself.
The reality you live is equally real. But quite different. Kinda hard to say whose “real” is more real.
It’s just an opinion / theory based on my personal experience.
My theory is that often when people isolate themselves, they have little to challenge their assumptions, views, or ways of thinking. They can build up a view in their mind about themselves or others (good or bad) that is not in line with reality. It can then become harder to accept any challenges to those beliefs.
I see some of this with elderly people like my wife’s parents and aunts. They live in a small insular world and just seem terrified about everything outside of it. My dad’s the same age and lives alone as a widower but he travels, has friends and an active social life. His view of the world is a lot less weird.
There are people like that who spend lots of time around other people. Those other people reinforce a highly limited view of the world, and help to keep them locked inside it.
I don’t think the degree of openness of one’s mind is all that related to what percentage of one’s time is spent in the physical presence of other humans. Some people who spend a lot of time alone read widely.
For that matter, many people who spend a lot of time alone also spend some time with a wide variety of others; and may well spend some of that alone time considering others’ points of view.
Should we force such people, for their own good (and possibly for the good of the rest of the ecosystem), to spend a large proportion of their time out in the woods and open fields, and in the company of other species?
IMO, thinking that reality is made up entirely of humans and human works is a dangerous frame of mind.
Some people spend time alone not due to their natures, but due to negative reasons such as illness, the death of those they were close to, being shut out by others, etcetera. This is no more healthy for them than it’s healthy to insist that people who need time alone shouldn’t have it. Either being alone when one shouldn’t be, or being forced to be with others when one shouldn’t be, can lead to frightened and seriously limited people.
Part of my point was that “out of the house” and “interact[ing] face to face with people” are not synonymous.
I sure don’t mean to imply that anyone should be forced, or even encouraged, by external forces to do what they don’t want to do. Whether that’s to isolate or anti-isolate.
I do mean to suggest that crawling up our own butt and inventing a convenient unreal reality is an ever-present risk each of us must should face down in our own way.
To that point, I think we need to get better as a society in encouraging more interaction.
Take the whole “return to work” push. At best that is a romanticization by older executives who pine for a time when the workplace was a space where you would go and interact with your coworkers, have lunch together, maybe go for drinks after work. IMHO that is a trend that was going away even before COVID. Even before COVID, I would often go to my office and there would be few people there and most of my interactions would be calls anyway.
Coffee shops like Starbucks used to be a “third space” where people could sit and work and hang out. Now a lot of them have been redesigned to maximize the flow of people coming in to pick up their remote orders.
No so much “forcing” people as to design spaces to make connecting with other people easier.
This is true. We’re out all the time, but I always feel like everyone I know is all on different schedules doing different stuff.
I’ll have to find some cites, but I keep reading articles describing an “epidemic of loneliness” in this country. And I guess what I’ve seen is that technology has made it so convenient to do everything remotely that it has inadvertently isolated everyone to do their own thing. There’s fewer “shared experiences”.
True. What I’m disagreeing about is whether the chances that one’s doing that has much to do with how much time one spends in the physical presence of other people. It’s quite possible to invent a convenient unreal reality while surrounded by other humans.
A more accurate term for many non-extroverted people is the recently coined term “otrovert”, which is defined as:
That’s different than an introvert:
I think many self-diagnosed introverts would be more accurately described as otroverts. They desire social connections and can be seen as outgoing, but they aren’t necessarily energized by the act of interacting socially–especially with large groups. When they are spending time socializing, they may also be looking forward to when the interaction ends.
You sound like my husband. He doesn’t mind doing stuff on his own, but he gets antsy if we spend a whole weekend not seeing anyone.
I feel it a little, and right now we’re going a bit stir crazy at the house since we’re on vacation.
I am more solidly introvert, and often think of being alone as a retreat. But for me it’s not just an energy-draining thing, it’s also sensory. I once explained to my husband that being in a crowd was like being pelted with rocks. The noise, noise, noise, noise!
Add to that social anxiety, it’s a miracle I know anybody. But I do know a lot of people. I have a writers group of ten years, we’re seven strong. I have a number of acquaintances at Sangha. It’s more hit or miss who I know at work, but I’m on regular speaking terms with at least ten people there. Then I have Monday night movie nights with my husband and two other friends. Then there’s the stuff I get dragged into with my husband’s family.
It can be difficult for me to warm up and I H-A-T-E parties and other crowded, noisy places full of strangers. But I’m not exactly a recluse. I love just sitting and talking to people for hours. Me, my husband, two more people, chatting over a nice dinner, that’s about perfect for me.
There’s the rub. Twenty-five years ago, when someone said they were an introvert, I didn’t wonder whether they were referring to crippling shyness or some other anxiety. Very often when someone describes their introvert behavior these days it comes off to me like they have an anxiety disorder of some kind. I’ve known some introverts over the years, but I wouldn’t describe them as being socially isolated or even awkward.
That said, if someone wants to isolate themselves from the rest of the world, it’s not my place to stop them. I think extreme isolation is bad for most human beings, but people are free to do what they want.
I get the feeling there’s a lot of exaggeration here about how introverts are being dragged into the streets and forced to socialize. Gang, that isn’t happening. If you want to stay inside and never talk to other humans, go right ahead, there isn’t a Happy Funtime Gestapo going door to door making sure everyone has an approved amount of face-to-face interaction. The rest of the world will keep on moving right along, without the benefit of your no doubt sparkling personality.
Absolutely no. The only grey area is an ideal society should offer help to mentally in people, and in the most extreme cases force them to get help. How do we as a society tell the difference between someone who is just an introvert and has no interest in interacting with society, and someone who doesn’t interact with society because they have a serious mental illness. People with serious mental illness should be offered help in an ideal society.
