In BBQ, why mod a hint at a racist joke but not an actual racial slur?

[Mighty_Mouse]

I can tell you that we’ve had people get a private session with HR for using “redneck”and “cracker” is way, way, worse. And I work for a company that is very far from woke.

You guys seem way out of step on this front.

[Measure_for_Measure]

It’s not a slur if it doesn’t bite the target (or ancillary observers with commonality). Occasional use of cracker won’t register with me. A jam-packed flamefest of derogatory terms for white people might.

Arguably things might feel different in South Africa. In fact, I suspect this issue feels very different there. So I’m not dismissing Dibble’s concerns, just pointing out that there are a range of reasonable perspectives.

Might Mouse: Agree that cracker is worse than redneck and the latter can get you a visit from HR. But HR is not the pit.

[Miller]

There’s a lot of things you can call people in the Pit that would get you in trouble with HR.

[TriPolar]

@MrDibble

Basically, either you want to run a board where racial slurs are not OK, or you don’t.

You know that’s a false dichotomy. The choice is to have a board with well defined consistent rules or not. We turned to not a while ago.

[Tamerlane]

@TriPolar

The choice is to have a board with well defined consistent rules or not. We turned to not a while ago.

Actually you have that completely backwards. This board was originally moderated on a principle of lack of well-defined rules, with “don’t be a jerk” being more or less the only guiding rule and moderators having fairly unlimited leeway on how to define that. It has been moving steadily towards more bright-line rules because unfortunately the behavior of some has kind of demanded it. People will argue/rules-lawyer forever over what is or is not jerky. Put a bright line in front of them and they stop (or at least slow down).

I’m not saying that is an unmitigated good - I think it has real drawbacks at times. But again it seems to be necessary for some who cannot abide vague rules.

[mordecaiB]

@What_Exit

We’re only talking in the Pit and not sure how cracker is vaguely as offensive as a lot of the crap (like dog f#ck#r) that does show up in the Pit.

Sorry, missed this was just about the Pit. But, dog f####r is not a racial slur and nobody thinks anybody is actually a dog f####r or a mother f####r and similar slurs, they are just swear words. People actually believe people are crackers and hillbillies. I don’t really think most other slurs are in the same ballpark as racial/orientation slurs.

[Northern_Piper]

@What_Exit

Use cracker in GD and a very good chance it is a warning and not just a modnote.

Why? we’ve just been told that it’s not serious and has no teeth. What rule does it break if it’s used in GD?

[Do_Not_Taunt]

@Miller

Is it? The only white people I ever see complaining about “cracker” are the same ones complaining about “wypipo,” and in both cases, those people tend to have questionable motives for making the complaint.

I think you have this backwards, and I suspect it may be related to the fact that you are (I believe) a bit older than me. I’ve never heard ‘cracker’ or ‘honkey’ used with any kind of venom; it’s almost always kind of jokey. (And I’ve never heard ‘ofey’ at all.) But ‘wypipo’ seems to always have a little anger behind it. I’m more likely to feel smeared by ‘wypipo’ than the others.

[What_Exit]

The Pit is largely unrestricted, all other forums are much more heavily moderated.

[Max_S]

@Tamerlane

Actually you have that completely backwards. This board was originally moderated on a principle of lack of well-defined rules, with “don’t be a jerk” being more or less the only guiding rule and moderators having fairly unlimited leeway on how to define that. It has been moving steadily towards more bright-line rules because unfortunately the behavior of some has kind of demanded it.

From the horse’s mouth,

@Ed_Zotti

“Don’t be a jerk” is the guiding principle behind our rules. It’s not, in itself, an enforceable rule. Everyone has a different notion of what constitutes jerkishness. To avoid endless arguments, we’ve tried to come up with bright line rules that are clear to all.

@Ed_Zotti

No hate speech

If you say hateful and/or racist things, you may get warned or banned. Some slurs are likely to be viewed as hate speech when used as insults, some aren’t. No, we aren’t going to give you a list. Our goal is not to restrict any and all speech which could be viewed by someone as offensive, but simply keep a modicum of decency, even here.

Emphasis,

Some slurs are likely to be viewed as hate speech when used as insults, some aren’t.

~Max

[Ludovic]

@Do_Not_Taunt

I’ve never heard ‘cracker’ or ‘honkey’ used with any kind of venom; it’s almost always kind of jokey. (And I’ve never heard ‘ofey’ at all.) But ‘wypipo’ seems to always have a little anger behind it. I’m more likely to feel smeared by ‘wypipo’ than the others.

I agree with this. Context helps gives meaning to slurs, and ‘wypipo’ is usually used in the context of “i’m about to express something at the very least stereotypical, and possibly hateful, about white people”, whereas “cracker” is, outside of the context of Florida or Georgia pioneers, usually used in a winkingly jokey way. And the less said about ‘honkey’ the better.

Which isn’t to say we ought to have a long conversation about ‘wypipo’ because I don’t actually see that term very often, either, personally.

[TriPolar]

@Max_S

From the horse’s mouth,

@Ed_Zotti

“Don’t be a jerk” is the guiding principle behind our rules. It’s not, in itself, an enforceable rule. Everyone has a different notion of what constitutes jerkishness. To avoid endless arguments, we’ve tried to come up with bright line rules that are clear to all.

~Max

I highlighted the part where the horse agrees with me.

[Max_S]

@Northern_Piper

What rule does it break if it’s used in GD?

This one,

@Jonathan_Chance

Hate speech, racist epithets and racism The use of racial epithets, pejoratives, slurs, and other similar items is forbidden. Hate speech as a whole, however, can be defined broadly or narrowly depending on the context of any individual thread. The definition of context is entirely at the discretion of the moderation staff.

Specifically,

The use of racial […] slurs[…] is forbidden.

~Max

[BigT]

While I agree that the word “cracker” is not nearly as offensive as the N-word, I don’t see why offense is the criteria. The current Pit rules do not ban any words for being too offensive—we got rid of that restriction.

I was under the impression that the rule is to ban racial slurs. And it very much does seem like the poster in question was using the term as a racial slur. His goal was to attack poster(s) for being white. He wasn’t cracking a joke, so that definition wouldn’t apply.

[BigT]

@Max_S

@Northern_Piper

What rule does it break if it’s used in GD?

This one,

@Jonathan_Chance

Hate speech, racist epithets and racism The use of racial epithets, pejoratives, slurs, and other similar items is forbidden. Hate speech as a whole, however, can be defined broadly or narrowly depending on the context of any individual thread. The definition of context is entirely at the discretion of the moderation staff.

Specifically,

The use of racial […] slurs[…] is forbidden.

~Max

Except you just previously quoted a rule saying that the mods determine which words are hate speech, and the mods have clearly decided this one isn’t.

[Max_S]

@BigT

I was under the impression that the rule is to ban racial slurs.

The rule is that “some slurs are likely to be viewed as hate speech when used as insults, some aren’t. No, we aren’t going to give you a list.”.

~Max

[Enjoy_Slurm]

So, my understanding from this thread is"

@What_Exit

I’m going to jump back in as you called me here and remind you of a really strong point.

NO BRIGHT LINES!

There are no “bright lines” against racism on The Straight Dope.

@Miller

As to the actual issue, I’m more or less with Darren_Garrison. “Cracker,” “Honkey,” “Wypipo.” “Ofey” if you want to get classical. None of these phrases mean anything to me. I mean, I know their definitions, obviously, and I can recognize in context when they’re meant to be an insult, but there’s absolutely no teeth to it. It’s like being called a can of soup. If I’m moderating something as “offensive to white people,” but I’m not offended by it, and virtually no white people anywhere are really offended by it… I’d feel like kind of an asshole, to be honest.

And racism on The Straight Dope is ok. As long as it is against white people because you wouldn’t want a mod to feel bad for standing up against racism.

[octopus]

That’s ridiculous. The whole point of discussion of rules is to discuss the rules. You folks who enforce the rules are very keen on words meaning what you want them to mean. It’s not jerkish for those who can be sanctioned by subjective interpretations to want to know what the actual rules are. Otherwise, cut the farce and just don’t even rules post rules other then to paraphrase ‘don’t be a jerk but you can be a dick.’

I agree with MrDibble here as he’s being consistent in recognizing that racial slurs are prohibited for a several reasons. One is that when used in an insulting fashion they are dehumanizing language and dehumanizing language can be problematic.

[Max_S]

@BigT

Except you just previously quoted a rule saying that the mods determine which words are hate speech, and the mods have clearly decided this one isn’t.

There’s no contradiction. Mods get to decide which slurs are hate speech, hate speech is banned in the Pit, but all slurs are banned in GD.

~Max

[bobot]

Well, that’s HR at your job, not here. Most white people, of which I am one, would just giggle at being called a cracker. It’s more amusing by far than it is insulting. Us white people really upped the ante in the racial slur department over the last few hundred years, and must have thicker skin than to be affected by such a harmless term.