In defence of Russia

It seems to me that Putin is admitting that the help from the “West” with weapons and training is unfair to russia. The point being that western training and weapons are so much more advanced than the russians, that its not fair against the russian barbarians. In other words, the russian armies are so incompetent and sub-par, that western help (without even sending troops or air support) is enough to help Ukraine demolish the invaders… Hmmm … Seems like an admittance of weakness to me.

About proxy wars, dont forget that North Korea and Iran are helping russia in a proxy war in Ukraine, supporting with drones and weapons. Is that unfair too? Or is it only unfair that the west is helping Ukraine?

Let me ask this: if Russia really thinks it’s at war with the “collective west”, why on Earth does it think it can win?

Well, it’s only fair that the poor besieged North Koreans and Iranians help out their embattled Russian friends. :stuck_out_tongue:

Well at this point it’s more an excuse for why they haven’t been able to win. It’s just Putin-era reversal of cause and effect; another big talking point from Putin and Russian state propaganda is blaming everything on Russophobia: Russia — The World Hates Us - CEPA

The term russophobia was popularized by Vladimir Putin in a bid to smear critics as irrational, and to fuse the Kremlin with the people.

Meta, the parent company of Facebook, has now earned a spot on Russia’s list of terrorist organizations, alongside the Taliban, the Caucasian Emirate, and the Islamic State group.

Business with the company is now illegal and any references in media must be followed by an asterisk explaining the designation. The charge against Facebook came not from its long struggles to tamp down on jihadis, but instead from its policy allowing Ukrainians to express violent sentiment towards Russian invaders, which the State Duma labeled “russophobia.” From UN declarations to rationalizing the invasion of Ukraine, Russian media and officialdom paints a picture of a world in which global politics is driven above all by anti-Russian prejudice.

The Russian state’s capacity to maintain its control through coercive means has been on full display since the invasion, but in the preceding decades, the Putin regime relied heavily on media and technology to position challenges to its power as beyond the bounds of socially acceptable speech.

The presentation of russophobia as an all-explaining force behind geopolitical events serves this purpose. By equating opposition to Kremlin policy with irrational anti-Russian feelings, Putin melds the state and the nation. By extension, opposition to the state can only come from opposition to the nation. This makes dissent socially taboo — Putin’s policies are so self-evidently beneficial to the Russian people that only those who wish ill on them could disagree with their president. So it is that those Russians appalled by the reckless aggression of a bloody regime which isolates them from the rest of the world, and threatens to impoverish the country, are described as traitors.

It’s not just weapons and training - at least two battalions of Polish troops are fighting the Russians in Ukraine, docha know comrad!

For clarity, no they aren’t, but Russian commentators and ‘war correspondents’ like Evgeny Poddubny who has worked for state owned TV stations Russia-24 and Russia-1 have been presenting this falsehood to the Russian public as fact since last spring.

How do they explain why they didn’t know this would happen?

I mean, I know that searching for logic is a fool’s errand, but… they started the “special military operation” because NATO was working against them, and now they’re shocked, shocked I tell you! that NATO is working against them? Shouldn’t they have taken that into account?

Yeah, that’s what I mean by the Putin reversal of cause and effect. The world is full of Russophobes who are irrationally prejudiced against Russia’s rightful place in the world* and constantly trying to keep Russia down for no reason at all. As our local Komrad says

Not the actual cause being Putin’s naked aggression and the effect being the ‘Russophobia’ of the West - and most of the rest of the world - working against them.

*See also the concept of Russkiy Mir or “Russian World/Russian Peace” an oldie from the Tsarist era that Putin has brought back, going so far as creating the Russkiy Mir Foundation by his personal decree in 2007.

I know you know this, but Putin knew that Ukraine wanted to work with NATO but NATO wasn’t going to do it, for fear of poking the (we now know impotent) bear. It was just window dressing for what was supposed to be a cake walk invasion.

But now that NATO is actually working with Ukraine, he’s a genius for seeing it!

Is Ukraine sacrificing too much to hold Bakhmut?

It is strategically important. But is the cost to hold it too much?
After Solidar has fallen, is it time for Ukraine to retreat to another defensive line? It seems the Russians are also trying to go westward to the south of Bakhmut. Trying to cut off transport corridors, or at least take fire control of them. Bakhmut is getting ever harder to hold and support. Casualties are very high.
I think they will lose it soon. Have they taken this time to build a good secondary defensive line to the west of it? Or do you folks see a likely way to keep hold of it without a too high rate of personnel and materiel cost?
These things seem to not be of any interest in the other thread of “Breaking news”.

ROFLMFAO you Putin troll. Seriously, get fucked, this is orders of magnitude beyond your normal levels of delusional. Russia has been beating its head against Bakhmut since August of last year, and those heavy casualties have been falling heavily disproportionately on the Russian side. There is already a secondary defensive line at Bakhmut, it’s been there since the Ukrainians blew the H-32 bridge, the only bridge crossing the river bisecting the city back in August. In five months of futile fighting, the Russians still haven’t penetrated into the part of the city that’s on the eastern side of that river, much less come anywhere near close to reaching the river in the middle of the city, which, just to remind you, is missing the only bridge crossing it. They’re still on the eastern outskirts of the city.

If you got your news from any sources other than Russian state propaganda, you’d long have known that the Russian obsession with bleeding themselves dry making futile efforts to break into Bakhmut for the past five months doesn’t make any strategic sense whatsoever. It is not a strategically important city. Its only value is that Russia seems determined to capture it to prove it is still capable of offensive action and has been failing at accomplishing this for five months running. Speculation has been that the Wagner group has been trying to prove its importance at Bakhmut since they have been providing the majority of the bodies being fed into the meatgrinder, and there have been open spats going on between the Wagner group, Putin’s Chechen TikTok general Kadyrov and the actual Russian military over social media for a long time.

Not that it’ll stick in your memory, but for the sake of others here, Battle of Bakhmut - Strategic Value - Wikipedia:

Strategic value

The overall strategic value of Bakhmut has been considered dubious by many analysts, observing that the resources and lives Russia has spent assaulting the city far outweigh its importance.[111] The UK defence ministry and U.S. National Security Council have both insisted capturing Bakhmut would only be a “symbolic” victory for Russia rather than a strategic one.[112][113] Some observers noted that Bakhmut is a key regional logistics and transport hub where two roads, the T0504 to Kostiantynivka and T0513 to Siversk, pass through.[56][114] Jon Roozenbeek, British Academy postdoctoral fellow at the University of Cambridge, observed that securing Bakhmut would put Kramatorsk and Sloviansk within sufficient Russian artillery range.[115] Konrad Muzyka, and expert on Russian security Mark Galeotti, argued that Russia’s costly assault is a matter of both preserving prestige and sunk cost fallacy—that Russian forces had already expended so much manpower in the war effort on other fronts that it “may as well do everything they can” to seize the city.[111]

Retired Ukrainian colonel Serhiy Hrabskyi suggested Wagner Group was seeking glory in capturing Bakhmut, as leader Yevgeny Prigozhin is poised to reap significant monetary and political rewards if Wagner captures the city on behalf of the Russian government.[14] Prighozhin himself had previously suggested Wagner was deliberately turning Bakhmut into a “meat grinder” to inflict heavy attritional casualties on Ukrainian forces.[116] On 7 January 2023, Prighozin gave a somewhat different explanation, emphasising the apparent defensive value the network of ‘underground cities’ in the mines of Soledar and Bakhmut would have for sheltering Russian soldiers and vehicles from Ukrainian airstrikes.[1] In January 2023, an unidentified U.S. official claimed Wagner was seeking to commercially exploit the salt and gypsum mines of Soledar and Bakhmut.[1]

Again, get fucked you Putin shill.

I was going to point out that if the cost to hold it is “too great”, the cost to try to take it has been far, far greater for far less benefit.

But “Get fucked you Putin shill” also works for me.

Oops, missed that @Dissonance already quoted Dr. Wiki.

It is dumbshit Russia that is sacrificing too much in it’s inept attempt to capture Bakhmut. Get the fuck out of Ukraine, Putin!

Certainly. Ukraine will lose and withdraw and everything in the region will be free for the taking. It will be a great opportunity. You should go at once.

I just want to take a moment to applaud the mods decision to ban our resident Russian troll from the serious discussion going on in MPSIMS. It hasn’t escaped my notice that that thread has continued with some truly enlightening analysis without his constant hijacks and derailments, and allowed serious posters to concentrate on serious issues without having to debunk and push back against insane propaganda.

It also hasn’t escaped my notice that our resident Putin supporter has been posting much much less than they used to. And it’s been much more entertaining to watch his posts and ideas dealt with the seriousness that they deserve.

I’m only here to read Dissonance as they tear the putin troll to pieces. Thank you Dissonance.

Interestingly, Russia’s GDP is actually less than Canada’s. And I imagine that Russia’s number is going to drop even more in the coming years.

This does not bode well for Russia the longer this war goes on. NATO countries have 25 times the GDP of Russia. And NATO probably has an even higher ration in terms of actual industrial production capacity.

Russia is fucked.

And you also have to consider, it’s Ukraine that is on the defensive. Do the people fretting about the cost to Ukraine of holding the line here imagine that the fighting would just end if Ukraine retreated? Of course not!

Ukraine has to hold the line somewhere, why not somewhere that isn’t critically important to them, and that’s already been bombed to ruins? Any new line of defense they fall back to just opens up more of Ukraine to the destruction Bakhmut has already suffered. Holding has a cost, sure, but so does retreat.

To be completely fair, when the Russians started attacking Bakhmut it held more strategic value, since at that point they still held Lyman and Izium, and Bakhmut was the next step towards encircling Sloviansk and Kramatorsk, which were at that point the largest cities in Donetsk Oblast still in Ukrainian hands. Since the Russian positions to the north collapsed in the Kharkiv Counteroffensive, Bakhmut has indeed be pretty much strategically worthless.

For some odd reason, I feel that this post fits the Trump enabler thread.

Good points.

It does have a small GDP in relation to its geographical size. But it does have a good internal manufacturing base. Not the highest tech, but pretty good. It does have a great amount of natural resources. With a moderately good capacity to refine from raw to finished product. Several countries with high GDP have off shored what I feel is too much of their manufacturing base. It hurts them in some situations. In some ways Russia may be able to weather a sanctions storm better than a lot of other countries. But it will hurt. It may take another 6 months to a year to see how hard they really hit.