Vaevictis: too strong. There really is room for some minor individual variation in pronunciation. Not everyone agrees with the hard c’s and v’s that sound like w’s. Some people say vie cissim, and others say “we kissem.” Many of us pronounce Cicero as “Sis er oh” and not “Kick er oh.” It’s much too strong to declare that such people (either set) cannot “read write or teach.”
(Gosh, you left out a comma; does this mean you cannot read, write, or teach English?)
Millions of people prefer the “traditional” pronunciation.
(I say “Bet el gee-yous” instead of “Beetle juice.” There’s room here for all.)
This. There is church Latin and there is sung church Latin and they are different. In fact there is sung English, French, and German and they are also not the same as the spoken modern languages. The different diction and vowel sounds help the physical apparatus of voice production to sound like the language only prettier.
In classical voice anyway. If you are singing the cowboy gloria just do your thang.
Basically, asking how something is pronounced in Latin is like asking how something is pronounced in English. There are a plethora of historical and regional dialects that muddle the question.
I studied 2 years of Latin and have sung in numerous choirs which sang in Latin. Let me see if I can provide some “helps” on remembering how to pronounce “in excelsis”.
Latin only has pure vowel sounds.
A = ah
E = eh
I = ee
O = O
U = Oo
So “in” is always pronounced “een”, not English “ihn”
the words “exit” is from Latin, so pronounce the “ex” in the same manner.
Most people correctly pronounce “cello”. The rule for ecclesiastical (church) Latin is “c” is pronounce as a hard “c” before the vowels “a”, “o”, and “u” - yielding “cah”, “coh”, “coo”. Before “i” and “e” the “c” is pronounced as “ch”, yielding “chee” and “cheh”. THEREFORE, the “c” in “exCElsis” is pronouced just as is in “cello”. There are no eggshells involved!
So the correct pronunciation is “EEN-EX-CHEL-SIS”.
Remember “EXit” and “CEllo” and you’ll neither forget or be wrong!
I didn’t read all of the replies, so I don’t know if this was mentioned already.
While the correct pronunciation is ek-shell-sees, my choir director always required us to pronounce it
egg-shell-sees
The reason? You get a horrible “s” sibilant sound while singing it. It sounds like a whole bunch of snakes hissing at that point. I also remember getting a really dirty look from the director when I forgot and mispronounced it in a performance. Didn’t help that I was in the first row, close to the center.
I tend to gloss over discussions on how the ecclesiastical pronunciation works, so I’m only now realizing that the spoken pronunciation is supposed to differ from the sung pronunciation. Checce:
Now, having put the time into learning the Restored Classical pronunciation, I feel entitled to be a bit snooty about ecclesiastical pronunciation – the fact that many Latinists well above my ability use it be damned. But now it turns out that there is an even more fucked-up sub-system? This will not stand! I mean, it’s stood for hundreds of years, but I have a good feeling about this century!
As I mentioned last time this was revived, there are multitudes of Latin pronunciations. In my time as a professional chorister, I have sung in Classical, ecclesiastic (Italian), German, Spanish, Portuguese, and antique English varieties of Latin, all with differences subtle to profound.
No way! I learned how to say this phrase when I took a dodgy course in Latin for a year or two from somewhere or other and I’m unequivocally certain that only the way I was taught is correct!
:eek:
(Of course fachverwirrt is 100% right. I just felt compelled to unleash my inner sarcasm.)
For fun: EWTN Kids. Go to the school. Select the black book “Let’s Learn Latin” on the desk in the hallway. You don’t need to enter a classroom. Go to lesson 2 and click on the bee to hear the phrase pronounced by a child.
I agree there is no one correct answer, but I think there is one that usually applies, and that is, for ecclesiastic phrases, use Ecclesiastical Latin. Sure, a choir director may have an informed reason to do something different, but I think that’s a good rule of thumb. The exception for the average singer would be when recordings indicate that tradition says otherwise–though I can’t think of any examples offhand.
I’m also very surprised that you’ve sang in English Latin. I’ve never heard that except with short phrases that have entered the English language, like the phrases lawyers use, the names of the Roman gods, or names of logical fallacies.
What have you sung in English Latin? Heck, can you name some songs and what regional variety of Latin you’ve sang them in? I really only encountered Ecclesiastical and Classical, albeit with slight variations depending on the director.
