Weird that the site is violating its own pronunciation instructions. By its own rules, the proper pronunciation would be “GLOR-ee-ah een ek-SHEL-sees DEH-oh.” The kid even says follows the former instructions, other than saying “day-oh” like he wants to go home.
Might as well make this a three-fer, and respond to this old question. I was referring to choral singing. As you said, that’s the only time I’ve ever heard of restricting vowels. It’s in order to get a better blend.
I probably should have quoted both you and Malacandra, as I was responding also to what you said:
I was just saying I’ve never heard of even a choir that is that restrictive with their vowels. I’ve heard of ones that outlaw [ə], [a], and [ʌ] (as in about, aisle and cup, for non-IPAers)–but that still leaves a lot more than five.
I actually suspect that Malacandra is misremembering or, worse, his teacher was. There is the teaching that all vowels are variations of a small set that you must be able to handle perfectly. You’re still making many different vowels, but you start from a “pure” vowel and change it.
There’s also an issue of vowel modifications in the upper register, and there are the sopranos who sing too high to actually make certain vowels. But those are special cases.
Any teacher (solo or otherwise) that would actually say you should sing “En-jellz wee hahv hahrd ahn hahee” is just horribly wrong, and apparently hasn’t listend to real singers in a long time.
One more thing… (sorry)
I found a page that covers the different Latin regional variations in pronunciation.
It also has a note on <xc> that confirms what I suspected: the reason we tell people to say egg-shell-cease is because the /k/ is unaspirated. A (soft) g sound is the closest we have in English to that phoneme. Properly, there should be no sound after the k/g at all. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a fricative.
Specifically, it was antique English Latin, which the director described as “pre Glorious Revolution”, although I don’t know how tongue-in-cheek he was being. The piece was something that was sung at the wedding of Mary I to Philip of Spain and had never been sung since.
The only thing I remember that was starkly different from anything else was that “ecce” was pronounced “ECK-see”.
In gospel choir, I always felt a little weird singing “Jesuth” in one of the songs, but we had to do it to avoid the sibilance too.
It’s not even the whole phrase!
Gloria in excelsis Deo. ~ Glory to God in the highest.
“Gloria in ek SELL cease DAY-oh.” [Or, “ek SELL sis.” And don’t overaspirate the k.]
Why is it that English speakers have such tremendous difficulties with pronouncing a straight [e]? They always want to end the [e] with an *. Why say “DAY-oh”, and not DE-o, with an [e] as in “bed” and an [o] as in “honk”? I think that would be a bit closer to either classical or church Latin.
I have tried teaching English speakers who wanted to learn German and/or Italian how to pronounce “straight” vowels without ending the sound with a closing * or . What amazes me is that the phonemes exist in the English language, and its speakers are perfectly able to pronounce them; just not on their own. That, to me, seems very different to the case of a Korean who cannot pronounce an [f]; or a Germanophone who can’t pronounce [θ]; or a Slav who can’t pronounce [δ]; or an Anglophone who can’t pronounce [ř], because these sounds simply do not exist in their respective language.
So, what, exactly, is it that renders an Anglophone - who’s otherwise perfectly able to say “fret” and “horn” - incapable of pronouncing “deo” without making it sound like “day-oh”? Is it that they cannot hear the difference, or are they aware of it and their mouth just fails to cooperate? Any English speaking Dopers here who had to learn a foreign language that has “straight” (monophonemic) vowels? How did you overcome that obstacle?
Daylight come and me wanna go home.
It’s the consonant after the vowel that shortens it. That’s standard Eglish. A vowel ending is different.
Because vowels in general are just arbitrary positions in a range of mouth opening and tongue placement, and English vowels are mouth motions through what in other languages would be a range of positions.
When you’re used to closing your mouth a bit during the vowel, and everyone around you does it, it’s probably harder to stop.
Und Keine Eier!
You know, I find that people on tapes, CDs and YouTube videos intended to teach Latin pronunciation always screw up the rules they themselves just explained. Weird, yes, but not on account of being unusual.
Right. I went back to the original Belafonte recording and had a relisten. Harry sings the chorus in broad Caribbean English creole, which has a very different phonology from English; for one thing, the vowels are all pronounced pure, with no offglides. Harry clearly articulates /de/, which really is [de], instead of the usual English [dei̯] or [deɪ] or [dej]. So actually, yes, if you listen to Harry you’ll learn those Caribbean Creole vowels, which follow a pattern derived from the phonologies of Niger-Congo languages of West Africa, particularly Akan. These are also the same set of pure vowels as Latin has and Italian still has. Here, [mi se de o] exactly matches /mi se de o/.
The difference from Latin being: in Jamaican there are only 3 long vowels: /aː/, /iː/, and /uː/, where in Latin all 5 can be either short or long. It has all 5 vowels short: /a e i o u/, and because of further phonemic rules (vowel harmony), only 4 diphthongs are allowed, none of which involve /e/ or /o/, which means /e/ and /o/ would always be pure and glide-free. So, length aside, if you want to hear Italian-grade Latin vowels applied to English, this link offers them.
Āmēn. Ave atque vale, magister Polycarp memoriae beatae. Requiescat in pace.
This is the best explanation of the phenomenon I’ve ever seen anywhere.
Thank you.
I notice another language that does that is Russian, which has multiple diphthongs that involve opening the mouth or moving the tongue away from the palate, instead of closing the gap, and treats them pretty much like regular vowels.
It seems |ie| is as common in Russian as |ei| is in English.