He opened your eyes, is all.
Before that, you didn’t question the propaganda that starts… well, at what kind of age.
Scary isn’t it.
Although you’re probably now aware you should’ve then thought of this then, you should’ve then wondered if this was the case, why Bush didn’t lay all his cards on the table and end all doubts. We were considering starting a war against a country, the most serious action one nation can take against another. In American history, there have been a number of instances where the need to wage war was obvious (e.g., after the attack on Pearl Harbor). This was not one of them.
During the months leading up to the invasion in March 2003, one thing that increased my skepticism about whether the war was needed was the bellicosity of many of the invasion’s supporters in the Bush Administration, Congress, and the media. Anytime anyone seemed to express any doubt about whether there was hard proof Saddam had any WMDs, had connections to Al Qaeda, or was an immediate threat to the U.S., there were mostly met not with fact-based refutations but instead accusations about their lack of intelligence, character, and loyalty. The push for war seemed less about the need to address a supposed clear and present danger to our national security but rather a Rovian campaign to score points against the Democrats and liberals by dredging up Vietnam-era charges about their being “soft, peace-at-any-price, unpatriotic, appeasers.” On that they were effective, since the pro-war GOP made gains during the 2002 congressional elections and were able to marginalize any critics into silence and irrelevance.
not to beat a clearly dead horse with a shovel,
but it’s also worth mentioning the same architects for this war (cheney, wolfowitz. rumsfeld, lesser degree Powell and at least one Bush) built the first Gulf war as well.
that’s a pretty dubious and ominous factoid.
I was never entirely convinced the first Gulf War was necessary. At the very least, the backers could’ve admitted it was really all about making sure someone like Saddam wouldn’t be able to exert too much control over much of the world’s oil supply so that he would be able to drive up the price of oil and adversely affect the economies of the Industrialized nations.
Honest question: do you guys think that we have all of the important facts about the causes of the war? I’m not into politics but I wonder how much high-level government strategy stays confidential to the public (I’m not hinting at corruption)
the IMPORTANT facts?
by all means, yes.
i’ve alluded to “ulterior motives of which we can only speculate on…” but this thing was such a high-profile bone of contention that, when asked by congress under testimony, various officials HAD to lay out their *official *reasons for war. these are reasons such as crippling a clear-and-present danger, humanitarian concerns, etc. it’s a *legal *matter.
the speculatory ulterior motives would be things like cronyism in regard to contractors, KBC/PMCs and the like, or more simply: oil.
is the implication that there is a justifiable rationale for the war that, for some reason, officials do not want to reveal? that they would instead lay out the bogus reasons in official legal testimony–as again, war has to be legally justified (which is why everyone calls this war illegal). why would they bank on the bogus reasons that causes america to look lose all integrity on the world-stage? if there was a however-clandestine reason that was justifiable, why would it clandestine?
i can’t even contrive one in my head.
edit: re-reading your question, i’m not sure i answered what you were asking.
do i think we know the honest reason the architects waged this war insomuch as what they were really thinking or intending…?
i do not.
not even close.
and the reason for that wouldn’t be a “hint” of corruption, it’d be a promise of corruption. because as i pointed out above, anything justifiable and morally/legally advantageous would be lain out in the legal proceedings and congressional testimony.
it’s not exactly speculation to look at a lof of the reason as stated were fairly thin, leaving one to guess there was some underlying reason.
oil?
revenge?
“you tried to kill muh daddy now we gonn’ kill you!”?? who knows.
i heard an interview where Bush said God told him to invade Iraq.
i don’t think we’ll ever know the “real” reason…
Domestically, VietNam gave us a bad hangover. Internationally, the wounds healed rather quickly. The dominoes did not fall, and we are trading with Hanoi. The fallout from Iraq will haunt us for another generation or two. 1) We let Osama out of Tora Bora, which gave Al-Quaeda the time to decentralize and survive. 2) I our desperation for allies, we took a viper to our breast (Pakistan), who is the chief sponsor of the Taliban and Al-Quaeda, and is determined to control Afghanistan through the Taliban, a tool of Pakistani Army intelligence (see Kashmir). 3) We empowered Iran.
It’s not over by a long shot.
Don’t forget that the US is a willing tool of Israeli foreign policy. Iraq is the only country that had bombed Israel with Scud missiles with gas warheads. The Israeli foreign minister visited Dick Cheney (not W.) twice in the first six months of the Bush II administration to pass on the game plan. I’m sure he mentioned the “lake of oil”. Our next task, should we choose to accept it, is to take out Iran.
I hope we do a better job.
interesting note.
watching the rep. debates recently, i heard several cases where many (if not all) would say something along the lines of adjusting financial aid to allies–except Israel, as they are “a special ally.”
our specific bond with israel is based on biblical christianity stuff, more or less…no? they are a special ally due to the religious implications…?
No, that’s not the reason.
It’s certainly a reason, due to the political power of fanatic Christians in America and their belief in “Biblical prophecy”.
:dubious: It’s neither A, B, C or D reason…more like X or possibly Z, somewhat below ‘we have a special relation with Israel because there are lots of Jews in New York’. There ARE lots (depending on how you define ‘lots’) of Jews in New York…but that has nothing really to do with why we are friends with Israel.
-XT
And why should I buy such a claim given how much power such Christians have? I’m just saying something that’s pretty well known; you appear to be indulging in some variation on “it can’t happen here”.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
And why should I buy such a claim given how much power such Christians have? I’m just saying something that’s pretty well known; you appear to be indulging in some variation on “it can’t happen here”.
[/QUOTE]
What do you suppose that Wiki link to Christian Zionism proves, exactly? 
And I was pretty clear I thought…it’s a reason on par with ‘there are lots of Jews in the US, so that’s why we are friendly to Israel’. There ARE ‘lots’ of Jews in the US…but it has little or nothing to do with why we are friends with Israel. There ARE ‘lots’ of fundamentalist Christian types in the US who believe that the restoration of Israel is key to them finally getting their wish of Armageddon (or whatever), but this has little or nothing to do with why we are friends with Israel.
-XT
i can see you dismissing the religious element, but you’re not providing any cite as to 1. why we ARE special allies (to the extent all, ALL other allies are lesser according to most pundants) nor 2. evidence it is NOT the religious connection.
i can tell you anecdotally, everyone i know here is 1. not jewish but 2. beleives the day america stops supporting israel with blind, zealous ferver is the day america will fall.
i hear it a lot. "obama doesn’t support israel enough. God will smite us if he’s not careful.’
for real. this is what many people say and think.
so if it’s not the biblical/religious “those who do not stand with Israel will fall” axiom, what IS it…?
no one is saying Kuwait is a special ally–nor saudi arabia. they are nice stations in the middle east in the middle of hostile anti-us countries. so it’s not a matter of logistics that makes israel “special.”
so…how about stop saying what it aint and start saying what it yam.
here’s what my research has yielded.
- israel was off our radar and relitively inconsequential until the Suez Crisis.
- since then, they have little to offer nor are they exactly self-sufficient. they have only recently found any natural resources to profit on and have required aid from america more-or-less since inception.
- the majority of “jews” live in america. they have access to great wealth and use this leverage to lobby politicians into more and more support.
- like it or lump it, the majority of america is christian, which means the majority of the constiuency demands a philosophical religious support of Israel, which absolutely factors in.
- we more-or-less created israel, and therefore they were our ally in an area that sided with cold war enemies.
- “We control America. Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”
- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001.
how many of these things factor in now…? in the 2012 election, why would Reps need to clarify the “special status” of israel…?
1 and 5 don’t factor in. the rest do, some more than others…
so. draw your own conclusions…
This lays out some pretty important facts–such as Israel is a often strategic burdern, does not have democratic ideals in-line with what we believe is “democratic,” and does not behave as an ally should, often flat out ignoring requests or suggestions on how they handle political conflicts.
Israel certainly isn’t rich in natural resources, but it’s self-sufficient. The idea that U.S. aid is the only thing keeping Israel alive is a fiction.
Why is the word Jews in quotes here?
No, it doesn’t.
That’s not true at all. Palestine was a British protectorate until after World War II, for starters.
This quote is made up. Draw your own conclusions.
i agree–israel is a relatively wealthy nation and i mis-spoke when calling them "not self suffient. i was speaking to the perception
–So why do we offer them more aid than anyone else…? why have we given them more aid since inception than any other country…?
they don’t “need” it–so…why?
- The main expression of Congressional support for Israel has been foreign aid.[1] Since 1985, it has provided nearly $3 billion in grants annually to Israel, with Israel being the largest annual recipient of American aid from 1976 to 2004 and the largest cumulative recipient of aid since World War II.[2] Almost all U.S. aid to Israel is now in the form of military assistance, while in the past it also received significant economic assistance. Strong congressional support for Israel has resulted in Israel’s receiving benefits not available to other countries.*
*Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing that given to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct economic and military assistance since 1976, and is the largest recipient in total since World War Two, to the tune of well over $140 billion (in 2004 dollars). Israel receives about $3 billion in direct assistance each year, roughly one-fifth of the foreign aid budget, and worth about $500 a year for every Israeli. This largesse is especially striking since Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to that of South Korea or Spain.
Other recipients get their money in quarterly installments, but Israel receives its entire appropriation at the beginning of each fiscal year and can thus earn interest on it. Most recipients of aid given for military purposes are required to spend all of it in the US, but Israel is allowed to use roughly 25 per cent of its allocation to subsidise its own defence industry. It is the only recipient that does not have to account for how the aid is spent, which makes it virtually impossible to prevent the money from being used for purposes the US opposes, such as building settlements on the West Bank. *
^that right there is us supporting a religious movement.
cite…? or are you just an authority…? you don’t need anything to back up what you say…?
since you blanket with a petulant “no,” i’m not sure what to rebut. so i’ll rebut every possible aspect.
first, christianity, i think without any debate, is the overwhelming religion of choice of americans.
second, fundamenal christians [URL=“http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_isra.htm”]support israeland believe america must stand by their side. (that’s multiple linkes there, don’t confuse yourself. i don’t want to just rely on one or two cases to support these truths).
These facts about modern day Israel are all true. But mere political rhetoric does not account for the profound devotion to Israel that exists in the hearts of tens of millions of evangelical Christians.
…
In closing, I would deliver to Israel in 2004 the message Yitzhak Rabin delivered to the United States on Christmas Day in 1974. For you are the living witnesses that the promises of the Sovereign Lord are true. “Be strong! Be strong!”
third, YES IT DOES.
In United States politics, Christian Zionism is important because it mobilises an important Republican constituency: fundamentalist and evangelical Protestants who support Israel. The Democratic Party, which has the support of most American Jews, is also generally pro-Israel, but with less intensity and fewer theological underpinnings.
Here’s an article called “God’s Lobbyists.”
fourth, the overwhelming (single) answer (if you have to pick just one) to the question “why is Israel a special ally” is because of the overwhelming powerof the JewishLobbyin American and their power. (went ahead and hyperlinked like, every word to a different article outlining the extreme influence of the Israeli lobby.
In their recent book, The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, JohnMearsheimer and StephenWalt argue that American support for
Israel does not serve American interests. Nevertheless, they observe that American foreign policy regarding the Middle East, especially
in recent years, has tilted strongly toward support for Israel, and they attribute this support to the influence of the “Israel lobby”
in American domestic politics.
fifth, google the search term “christian influence on politics” and all you’ll find are political articles on whether or not the political influence of christians is or isn’t slipping. there’s not one single solitary instance of anyone saying “christians hold no political sway whatsoever” other than your totally bogus and unsubstaintiated claim.
Christians support Israel for religious reasons, Christian and Jewish Lobbies have great political sway, and childishly saying “no” without any facts or substantiation doesn’t really prove much except you’re debating for the sake of it without any rationale.
wth are you even talking about…? it absolutely IS true.
are you arguing that palestine is a recognized place…? what does that have to do with the history of Israel…?
*May 14, 1948, the United States, under Truman, **became the first country to extend de facto recognition to the state of Israel, 11 minutes after it unilaterally declared itself independent. *With this unexpected decision, US representative to the United Nations Warren Austin, whose team had been working on an alternative trusteeship proposal, shortly thereafter left his office at the UN and went home. Secretary of State Marshall sent a State Department official to the United Nations to prevent the entire United States delegation from resigning.[14] De jure recognition came on January 31, 1949.
oh, also, this:
Truman, while sympathetic to the Zionist cause, was most concerned about relieving the plight of the displaced persons.
that is proof that from the onset of the nation of israel’s existence, america at least PARTIALLY factored in the religious aspects of our special ally status.
boom.
also, this:
The U.S.–Israel “special relationship” grows in part from the resonance of a common Bible and a host of Judeo-Christian features. As western democracies, Israel and the USA have shared strategic interests, shared civic and political values, and the personal, cultural, and political bonds that exist naturally between free peoples. – David Meir-Levi
in closing, a pretty simple fact has been marginalized:
israel is a religious state, not founded on the freedom of worship or tolerance, but as a reclaimation of the biblical holy land by God’s chosen people.
and we support them more than any other nation on this planet.
we offer them more military and $ aid than any other single entity, and Israel is the single only recipient of US aid who does not have to account for how it will be used. they are free to do whatever, and do so–even at our behest not to. they do things like increase arab tension by expanding into the west bank, using our aid against advice.
Ignore all the overwhelming evidence i just posted–the simple fact we fund a religious nation, allowing them to spend the money expanding their relgious interest means we 100% are at the very least tacit relgious allies. simply by default.
oh oh oh–one last thing:
the sharon quote.
i can find a ratio of something like 100:1 saying he DID actually say it vs “it was fake.”
considering all the over evidence i’ve already provided, i can take or leave the quote.
but even if it was never said, the fact is they have the highest voter turn outfor any ethnicity and that no dem has won presidency without at least 71% of the Jewish vote.
let’s also not forget the lobbying power.
so, sharon’s quote can be true or not and then taken as states or not, but the lobbying power of Israel over US politics is unquestionable.
i agree–israel is a relatively wealthy nation and i mis-spoke when calling them "not self suffient. i was speaking to the perception
–So why do we offer them more aid than anyone else…? why have we given them more aid since inception than any other country…?
they don’t “need” it–so…why?
- The main expression of Congressional support for Israel has been foreign aid.[1] Since 1985, it has provided nearly $3 billion in grants annually to Israel, with Israel being the largest annual recipient of American aid from 1976 to 2004 and the largest cumulative recipient of aid since World War II.[2] Almost all U.S. aid to Israel is now in the form of military assistance, while in the past it also received significant economic assistance. Strong congressional support for Israel has resulted in Israel’s receiving benefits not available to other countries.*
*Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing that given to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct economic and military assistance since 1976, and is the largest recipient in total since World War Two, to the tune of well over $140 billion (in 2004 dollars). Israel receives about $3 billion in direct assistance each year, roughly one-fifth of the foreign aid budget, and worth about $500 a year for every Israeli. This largesse is especially striking since Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to that of South Korea or Spain.
Other recipients get their money in quarterly installments, but Israel receives its entire appropriation at the beginning of each fiscal year and can thus earn interest on it. Most recipients of aid given for military purposes are required to spend all of it in the US, but Israel is allowed to use roughly 25 per cent of its allocation to subsidise its own defence industry. It is the only recipient that does not have to account for how the aid is spent, which makes it virtually impossible to prevent the money from being used for purposes the US opposes, such as building settlements on the West Bank. *
^that right there is us supporting a religious movement.
cite…? or are you just an authority…? you don’t need anything to back up what you say…?
since you blanket with a petulant “no,” i’m not sure what to rebut. so i’ll rebut every possible aspect.
first, christianity, i think without any debate, is the overwhelming religion of choice of americans.
second, fundamentalchristians support israeland believe america must stand by their side. (that’s multiple linkes there, don’t confuse yourself. i don’t want to just rely on one or two cases to support these truths).
These facts about modern day Israel are all true. But mere political rhetoric does not account for the profound devotion to Israel that exists in the hearts of tens of millions of evangelical Christians.
…
In closing, I would deliver to Israel in 2004 the message Yitzhak Rabin delivered to the United States on Christmas Day in 1974. For you are the living witnesses that the promises of the Sovereign Lord are true. “Be strong! Be strong!”
third, YES IT DOES.
In United States politics, Christian Zionism is important because it mobilises an important Republican constituency: fundamentalist and evangelical Protestants who support Israel. The Democratic Party, which has the support of most American Jews, is also generally pro-Israel, but with less intensity and fewer theological underpinnings.
Here’s an article called “God’s Lobbyists.”
fourth, the overwhelming (single) answer (if you have to pick just one) to the question “why is Israel a special ally” is because of the overwhelming powerof the JewishLobbyin American and their power. (went ahead and hyperlinked like, every word to a different article outlining the extreme influence of the Israeli lobby.
In their recent book, The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, JohnMearsheimer and StephenWalt argue that American support for
Israel does not serve American interests. Nevertheless, they observe that American foreign policy regarding the Middle East, especially
in recent years, has tilted strongly toward support for Israel, and they attribute this support to the influence of the “Israel lobby”
in American domestic politics.
fifth, google the search term “christian influence on politics” and all you’ll find are political articles on whether or not the political influence of christians is or isn’t slipping. there’s not one single solitary instance of anyone saying “christians hold no political sway whatsoever” other than your totally bogus and unsubstaintiated claim.
Christians support Israel for religious reasons, Christian and Jewish Lobbies have great political sway, and childishly saying “no” without any facts or substantiation doesn’t really prove much except you’re debating for the sake of it without any rationale.
wth are you even talking about…? it absolutely IS true.
are you arguing that palestine is a recognized place…? what does that have to do with the history of Israel…?
*May 14, 1948, the United States, under Truman, **became the first country to extend de facto recognition to the state of Israel, 11 minutes after it unilaterally declared itself independent. *With this unexpected decision, US representative to the United Nations Warren Austin, whose team had been working on an alternative trusteeship proposal, shortly thereafter left his office at the UN and went home. Secretary of State Marshall sent a State Department official to the United Nations to prevent the entire United States delegation from resigning.[14] De jure recognition came on January 31, 1949.
oh, also, this:
Truman, while sympathetic to the Zionist cause, was most concerned about relieving the plight of the displaced persons.
that is proof that from the onset of the nation of israel’s existence, america at least PARTIALLY factored in the religious aspects of our special ally status.
boom.
also, this:
The U.S.–Israel “special relationship” grows in part from the resonance of a common Bible and a host of Judeo-Christian features. As western democracies, Israel and the USA have shared strategic interests, shared civic and political values, and the personal, cultural, and political bonds that exist naturally between free peoples. – David Meir-Levi
in closing, a pretty simple fact has been marginalized:
israel is a religious state, not founded on the freedom of worship or tolerance, but as a reclaimation of the biblical holy land by God’s chosen people.
and we support them more than any other nation on this planet.
we offer them more military and $ aid than any other single entity, and Israel is the single only recipient of US aid who does not have to account for how it will be used. they are free to do whatever, and do so–even at our behest not to. they do things like increase arab tension by expanding into the west bank, using our aid against advice.
Ignore all the overwhelming evidence i just posted–the simple fact we fund a religious nation, allowing them to spend the money expanding their relgious interest means we 100% are at the very least tacit relgious allies. simply by default.
oh oh oh–one last thing:
the sharon quote.
i can find a ratio of something like 100:1 saying he DID actually say it vs “it was fake.”
considering all the over evidence i’ve already provided, i can take or leave the quote.
but even if it was never said, the fact is they have the highest voter turn outfor any ethnicity and that no dem has won presidency without at least 71% of the Jewish vote.
let’s also not forget the lobbying power.
so, sharon’s quote can be true or not and then taken as states or not, but the lobbying power of Israel over US politics is unquestionable.