In hindsight: was the US' Iraq invasion a positive thing?

Great Debates
101

This number is not correct, its only plausible if you stop counting pretty early on, only count violent deaths and favor 9:1 the lowest estimates to others. Any logical assessment would look at all types of death in excess of the period before the invasion that are in disparity.

Its also worth noting that in the American media you will hear reports of US soldier deaths in these occupations 100:1, even though the number of our dead is less than the inverse to that ratio relative to theirs.

Honorable people would at least be as concerned with the consequences to people that are the target of our interventions, invasions, occupations (whatever euphemism you prefer) than with those that chose this life by joining the military here.

102

If you can find a family in any major city of Iraq not directly affected by the war - in terms of death, serious physical injury or long term emotional trauma - I’d be surprised. Maybe not the cities, perhaps the country.

On that basis, who the fuck cares about nice, convenient entirely spurious totals.

103

I think that Iraq will be much like Pakistan-and the Sunnis and Shias will continue to bomb and slaughter eachother (as they do in Pakistan-25 killed today by a bus station bombing). Face it, you cannot build a nation where none exists-and we seem to be slow to learn that lesson.
Take Syria-the Assad regime has killed over 10,000 of its citizens…and will continue to do so, until it is overthrown. What will emerge from this? Another repressive regime, which will happly murder to stay in power.

104

There is no propaganda in Iraq.

105

That was not a secretarian attack it was TTP. And last I checked Pakistans founder was a Shia and so is the current President. And for bombing and killing each other, my parents seem to be able to avoid it.:rolleyes:

106

Just wait till the divorce! :smiley:

107

I would say it’s mostly a combination of mutual interest with the U.S. and good lobbying. No question the Israeli lobby is a powerful and well-run one and there’s certainly an argument to be made that they have too much influence or that supporting Israel is not in the best interests of the U.S. When things get more conspiratorial, the debate loses touch with reality. That tends to happen more often with Israel and Jews for some reason.

My main point of disagreement with you is that end-times Christianity is the main reason the U.S. supports Israel. There are fundamentalists Christians who feel that way, but they don’t drive foreign policy. Other factors, like the fact that Israel is a Middle Eastern democracy and a counterweight to Iran (and formerly Iraq) in a region that is important and unstable, are more important.

I hope you’re kidding. The area that is now (most of) Israel was formerly the British protectorate of Palestine. The United States couldn’t create it. It’s like saying the U.S. made France. The land belonged to someone else.

Snort.

No, that’s a foolish argument.

Another victory for Google Vomit! Seriously, the quote is obvious fake. I knew before I searched for it. It reads like an anti-Semite’s wet dream. The part that should have tipped you off is “We, the Jewish people.” Sharon was the prime minister of Israel, not the PM of the Jews. And just to remind you, there are 6 to 7 million Jews in the U.S. Saying they control a country of 310 million people (where no Jew has ever been elected president, vice president, or even become speaker of the house) is ridiculous.

You keep jumping back and forth between talking about the country of Israel and Jewish Americans. They’re two separate things. I find it’s not a good sign for the discussion when someone starts by talking about Israel and then goes on and on about the outsize power of the Jews.

108

[QUOTE=dontbesojumpy]
i can see you dismissing the religious element, but you’re not providing any cite as to 1. why we ARE special allies (to the extent all, ALL other allies are lesser according to most pundants) nor 2. evidence it is NOT the religious connection.
[/QUOTE]

It’s not up to me to prove this claim, it’s up to you to provide some evidence for it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs, and, hate to tell you, but claiming that the US has a special relationship to Israel because of religion is on par with claiming that that the US was involved in taking down the buildings during 9/11.

Even if ‘everyone’ you know is somehow representative of, well, anything at all, so what? People can believe whatever they want to believe…what has this got to do with the US’s reasons for having a special relationship to Israel? Answer: nuffin.

Again, so what? That has zero to do with how our relationship to Israel started or why it continues.

Have you ever thought to, I don’t know, open a history book or something? Our special relationship with Israel stems from the same international dynamics as our special relationship with South Korea…i.e. it started out in the cold war. Both countries were and still are strategically important to the US…perhaps you noticed all that oil stuff in the region around Israel? Yes? We wanted allies in those regions that would give us basing rights, allow overflights, and generally support us in regional affairs. Even a cursory view of the REST of the Middle East would show that countries in the region weren’t exactly lining up to be our good friend until fairly recently. It’s really as simple as that…no CT about religion being a driving factor needed.

No one is saying that because they AREN’T especially strong or long time allies. Again, have you considered reading up on the region and learning something about it before creating these fantasy assertions? Israel has been our strong ally in a vital region since the cold war era. Kuwait has been a relatively decent ally since the first Gulf War period and afterward. Saudi has NEVER been one of our strong allies, since their own public is split between various factions, some of which are very negative towards the US (ever heard of that Osama bin Laden dude? He was in all the papers. Know where he’s from? Know why it’s important?).

:stuck_out_tongue:

-XT

109

marley,

you said outright the religious ties is not at all why we support israel.
then you just said other factors are “more important.”

i believe since i posited the question “why is israel a special ally–is it because of religion?” my and the other proponants of this have pointed out with copious supporting evidence that it is very much at least A reason. you have said it is NOT AT ALL a reason, but then say it IS a reason but that “other factors are more important.”

like all things america does, there’s official motivation and idealogical motivations that usually do not get “official” billing.
as i pointed out, bush said God told him to invade Iraq. that will never, ever be an official reason we went to war, but it’s a fact that still exists.

i concede the single largest factor as to why israel is a special ally is the iraeli lobby in america and their sway, followed by a descending list of various other reasons including religious ties, christian sentiment and the influence of the christian right (which, btw, read the article by pat roberton–he contends it’s not an “end-times” christian thing as much as it’s a “God’s chosen people/God said to stand by them” thing).

somewhere on that list is the democracy thing, but it’s way down the list as many of the links and evidence prove. they are not a democracy representing the freedoms america stands for and for that matter, we have notoriously, historically supported dictatorships just the same. we still have a great many standing/working relationships with dictators. we have utterly no moral conflict with the suppressive, sexist rulings of saudi kinds (women walk 5 feet behind men, cannot drive, etc).
to say israel is our “special ally” because of democracy requires ignoring a lot of other historical facts.

i agree, it’s no one single reason, but from it’s inception, Truman was the first to recognize the nation because of zionist sympathies. there’s confirmation after confirmation proving there IS a STRONG connection between religion and our ally status, often conflicting with political policy.

i have provided numerous links, articles, and quotes supporting this.

you have provided: zero.
no links, no quotes, nothing but your own opinions, which in your last post you seem to be agreeing that the religious connection is at least a factor to some extent (just not the most important).

if you cannot provide any sort of evidence that there is beyond doubt no religious connection that causes the link to be “special,” why do you expect anyone to take you seriously…?

finally, there’s no jumping back between talking about american’s jews and the nation of israel. we are talking about why america supports israel so implicitely, and a major MAJOR reason for that is the sphere of influence of american jews (click just like, ONE of the links i provided. read a little. it’ll help you to understand more).

the connection of israel-as-an-ally and the american jewish population is inseperable.

110

The only thing I was “not true at all” was the claim that the U.S. created Israel, and that’s not true at all. I did say that you were wrong to assert that Christianity demands support for Israel. It doesn’t, although some Christians interpret things that way. And I don’t think that belief has a major effect on U.S. policy.

The reasons for that stupid war are not a secret.

I said that was one factor, not the only one. Israel has some severe human rights problems but it’s also worth noting that it’s surrounded by monarchies, theocracies, and theocratic monarchies.

So how did the U.S. create Israel?

Yes, there is. You’ve done it a couple of times already. If Israel has a powerful lobby, what does it matter that Jewish voter turnout is high? There aren’t that many Jews in the first place. There are arguably enough of them that their votes are significant in Florida. You seem to be proposing that American Jews monolithically support Israel. They don’t, and even if they did, their votes aren’t that important because there are so many groups of people that are so much larger.

Do you really think I’ve never seen anyone else argue this nonsense?

111

xt,

i’ve provided numerous quotes, links, articles, etc all supported the (now fairly obvious) fact that israel is a special ally for numerous complicated factors, none of which currently have anything to do with the cold war (you do realize it’s over now, right?)

saying it’s an extraordinary claim and comparing it to 9/11 conspiracy is a nice rhetorical device, but you have (like marley) provided bubkiss evidence other than ‘lemme tell you why i’m right.’

provide me counter evidence to my claims.

(hint: wikipedia’s main article tiled “Israeli-US relations” clearly outlines Truman’s against-the-grain immidiate support for Israel was in no small portion due to his Zionist sympathies. you make condescending remarks about cracking history books–i might suggest you don’t cherry pick the parts that support your claim and disacknowledge the ones that don’t. ignoring history doesn’t change it).

as i just said, there are numerous complicated factors that make Israel a special ally. kuwait, south korea, the UK–none of these are the same as how we support Israel. we support them implicitly in spite of the fact they have, by many professional assessments, become a strategic burden (see: NUMEROUS links/articles provided already).

you, like Marley, are doing little more than zealously defending your catch-all stance of “NO!!”
but you’re not providing anything more than your own opinions and words.

if you can refute all the wikipedia artcles and quotes and all else i provided, with some kind of evidence other than your own ravings, feel free.

otherwise i’m dismissing you as a rabble rouser.

you will be hard pressed to prove beyond contention that there is 100% no connection between religion and the special ally status.
there simply is, to whatever varying degree, a connecton. if nothing more than it’s a relious nation founded on biblical principles and we give them more money in unchecked discretion and military support that allows them to propegate their relious ideals.

how can you argue that…?

112

Does he have to refute the fake ones, or just the real ones?

I’m also kind of troubled by the way you keep ignoring some of the things I’m saying. Why did you put quotes around the word Jews in post #96? How did the U.S. create Israel when the land it is on (formerly Palestine) was a British protectorate? How can you confuse supporting something with creating it?

113

you’ve made it clear what you “think,” but you’ve also made it clear that the only support for you claim is that you think it.

while i appreciate your opinion, your opinion requires ignoring all the evidence/quotations/cites i’ve provided.

you just kind of seem to want to think it. which is fine–but you don’t have a salient point. just opinions.

as did i. it’s a factor. not the only one. what’s the point of continuing on in debate if we agree…?

again, please read some of the links i provided. while we did not actively carve out Israel as a nation, we were the first to acknowledge and support them (in spite of conflicts of interest) and have supported them more than anyone in history. they were formed as a nation based on zionist principles, lead by a zionist leader. we supported them implicitly and instantaneously, doing all we could to ensure their success which has continued to the tune of 3 billion per year (or 500 bucks a year per human in israel).

how did we NOT factor into the creation of the nation of israel? the problem is you cannot possibly provide anything but speculation as to what would have happened if we hadn’t supported them so wholeheartedly. would they have failed? would they have flourished? who knows. all we DO know for sure is that we have done all we can to ensure their immediate and continued prosperity since inception.

i provided you numerous links already addressing this. i cannot help that you refuse to read them. and i cannot repeat things enough times to get you to understand–you have proved at this point you have a tautological stance and you just want to debate with only your opinion. search the question “why is israel U.S speical ally” and see how many return answers talk of the power of the jewish lobby in america.

or just read this one article.
or just this one wikipedia entry.

^that is why the israeli lobby matters, and the zionist movement in american jews factors into this (you say they don’t support israel…? yes, they do, as supported by the articles and links). their voting power is lain out in the links i provided WITH STATISTICS, so your claims they “aren’t that important” have to acknowledge the numbers conflict. as i said, no us democratic president has won with less than 71% of the jewish vote since the 1970s.
why does this matter?
with the majority of jewish americans supporting the israeli zionist movement, and with their political voting and lobbying power, they are a powerhouse of political constituency.
this is how lobbying works, and it’s how politics work. politicians have to pander to the will of the constituency, which is a major factor in the special ally status.

i just don’t know what to tell you. you’re going to have to, at some point, stop opining and read some of this stuff. unless you can provide some kind of factual counter-evidence to, you know, wikipedia or that article by Mearsheimer, you’re just wankin’ with your opinions.

none of what i’m saying is my opinion based on anything i care about. it’s just the facts as i’ve provided them to you.

i think you’re not good at debate because all you can do is provide opinions.
not evidence or cites.

114

unlike you, i’ll address all you need, stresserella.

“jews” was put in quotes because i meant to clarify between israelis and jewish americans who, while not living in israel, support it as much if not more than if they were to live there.

i got side-tracked and didn’t come back to my point.

can you sleep easier knowing this…? it seems to concern you an awful lot.

how i can confuse creating something with simply supporting it…?

when an investor is disproportionately supportive of something inspite of nurmerous political and ideological conflictions, to the degree we grant monitary and military support implicitly, without discretion, “support” and “stilting” kind of all become blurry. a producer of a film typically is the financial and logistical supporter.
we clearly are not the director of israel, but we are most definately the producer.

i didn’t coin the term “special ally.” the government did.

115

So the U.S. didn’t create Israel. Why did you say it did? Supporting something and “more-or-less creating” it are totally different.

Yesterday you said “israel was off our radar and relitively inconsequential until the Suez Crisis.” That was about 8 years after Israel was founded.

Things don’t become true or false based on the number of Google hits they get. It’s the same with the obviously fake Sharon quote you posted earlier: the fact that people have blabbed about it on the 'net doesn’t mean it’s true.

What’s the significance of this factoid, in your opinion? Israel has been around longer than that, and several Republicans have been elected since the 1970s. Follow the logic here: Jews are a small portion of the U.S. population, and in presidential elections they tend to vote strongly for Democrats. Even if they’re voting for the Democrats at a 70 percent clip, that’s a margin of more than two to one. Essentially they’re not swing voters. They either go for the Democrat by a lot or they go for the Democrat by a ton - those are the options. How does that make them a powerful constituency?

It didn’t clarify anything. It didn’t make sense, and I don’t think this is accurate.

I thought you said (by your fake Sharon quote) that Israel controls the U.S. Are you now saying the U.S. controls Israel? How does this work? Regardless, I think this quote acknowledges that the “created” claim was puffery. The U.S. didn’t “more-or-less create Israel.”

116

You’ve been here long enough to know our rules about personal comments. Knock it off.

117

economic support of something to ensure it’s fruitful continuation sure is blurring the line. again, producing a movie isn’t the same as writing it–but it’s 100% imperitive to it’s creation.

i’m going to put this in all caps this time: READ THE ARTICLE ON WIKIPEDIA OUTLINING US-ISRAELI RELATIONS.

it’s annoying to have to repeat this because you REFUSE to do any research.

Truman unilaterally supported Israel immidiately upon it’s inception–
Polically, foreign policy and direct interaction as a US policy didn’t occur until 1956 and the Suez Crisis.
that was our first major POLICY involving Israel.

NONE OF THIS IS MY OPINION. IT’S HISTORY.

it’s cute you think they become true because you think them, tho. to the point you disregard and refuse to research or understand history.

sheesh.

i refuse to allow my opinions into this discussion.

i asked a question seeking honest factual answers based on more scientific merits and historical sourcework, NOT JUST PEOPLE’S OPINIONS ON THINGS, which is all you have yet to provide (your own).

my opinion doesn’t matter–but moreover, i don’t have an opinion, i just have this observation of history and facts.

the fact is you dont’ know what you’re talking about. american jews are mostly REPUBLICAN LEANING which is why dems require and overwhelming majority of their votes to win.

dude, step away from the keyboard, do a little research, relax. stop injecting your opinions and just look at some things more objectively for once…

see where that gets you…

118

The Role of Israeli Lobbist in U.S. Elections.

ps.
sorry i called you stresserella. you just seem like you’re really stressing out about this…

^read the thing. be a little objective.
again, nothing i’ve said is my opinion. it’s all supported by history and fact.

119

We’ve now progressed to straight-up nonsense. American Jews don’t lean Republican. In presidential elections, they usually vote for the Democrat even when the Republican wins in a landslide. Even if what you were saying was true, it would be moronic strategy for the Democrats. (Not that the Democrats have never employed foolish strategies.) Why would they concentrate this hard on a small group of voters who (according to you) lean Republican? They’d do better to focus on the turnout of groups who lean Democrat or to focus on swing voters.

No, the simplest explanation is that you have the history backwards and are misunderstanding the statistics. Democrats don’t need the Jewish vote to win. When they get a relatively low percentage of Jewish votes - and here, relatively low usually means 60 to 70 percent, which is still a huge win - it means they’re losing big time and not doing well among the electorate at large. In those years, the Jewish vote is a reflection of that fact.

120

^you’re right, i misread this quote:
Although American Jews generally leaned Republican in the second half of the 19th century, the majority has voted Democratic or leftist since…

nah, they just need their support in every single way.
According to the Washington Post, Democratic presidential candidates depend on Jewish sources for 60% of money from private sources.[49]

According to Bard,[20] “Jews have devoted themselves to politics with almost religious fervor.” He cites that “Jews have the highest percentage voter turnout of any ethnic group” and that of the American Jewish population “roughly 94 percent live in thirteen key electoral college states” which alone “are worth enough electoral votes to elect the president. If you add the non-Jews shown by opinion polls to be as pro-Israel as Jews, it is clear Israel has the support of one of the largest veto groups in the country.” Bard goes on to say that for United States congressmen “there are no benefits to candidates taking an openly anti-Israel stance and considerable costs in both loss of campaign contributions and votes from Jews and non-Jews alike.”[20]
“Most important fact about the Jewish vote in America”, according to Jeffrey S. Helmreich of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, “lies in the fact that it is a uniquely swayable bloc. […] The issue of support for Israel [by a candidate] has proven capable of spurring a sizable portion of Jews to switch parties—in large enough numbers to tip the scales in national or statewide elections. Moreover, the “Israel swing vote” is especially open to political courtship because, unlike the interests of other minority groups, support for Israel has long been compatible with traditional Republican and Democratic agendas. … On the other hand, being distinctively unsupportive of Israel can significantly hurt a candidate’s chances.”

considering dems simply cannot win without jewish support–both votes and the majority of private campaign contributions, i’d go ahead and call their politcal influence “substaintial.”

like i just posted, this article gives a pretty good outline to the significance of the jewish lobby’s power.

American Jewish population and demography
*Jewish population in America has high turnout rate in presidential election compared to non- Jew Americans and other ethnic minorities; at the same time most of the Jewish voters, near 89 percent, are inhabited in key states like: California, Illinois, New York, Pennsylvania, and Florida. While it is argued that the low percentage of Jews cannot be that much influential in the result of the election, but the electoral college system is in such a way that even few number of voters can have significant influence on the final result, esp. in this case where the Jewish population is concentrated in important states as it was mentioned.

Another important point is the Evangelical Christians with much greater population compared to Jews and they play an important role in the outcome of the election, this would be described later in the paper.*

once again, not my opinions, just objective analysis of the facts.