Pazu, (1.) my flowerbed is a long oval, about 5ft x 12ft.
2.) My bed was annuals this past year, but I’ve had perennials there. I had to make some tricky cuts in the wire, and even piece together some areas. Roses and a tree should be easier than the coreopsis and gaillardia I had. It’s about the same as cutting wallpaper around a light switch. Crocuses can probably grow up through the holes with no cutting.
3.) Poultry netting seems to take about two or three years to rust. That’s the best part, though! Rusty wire is completely invisible against the dirt.
4.)Yes, the wire goes on top of everything. I don’t use much mulch here. It makes the slugs happy. I just pull the weeds out of the loose soil by hand. Once the flowers get established, they shade out the weeds.
About the cat-cussing part, no, it wasn’t to you. Another poster was rather irate, and I was reminded of Adrian Monk. This is not the Pit, and that’s as impolite as I’m willing to get in IMHO.
Ferals, yeah. But not my cats, on the basis that:
a) I live in the suburbs
b) My cats never learned to hunt from their mothers - they’re terribly, terribly proud when they bring in a baby mouse that probably staggered from its nest for the first time that day
c) Aforementioned ‘cat fence’. Neko, the escape artist, does make a point of jumping from the retaining wall to the roof once a night, but he’s only out for about an hour before he gets bored by the whole thing and comes back inside.
Also, homes with basements in Australia fit into the category of ‘really, really, super-rare’. Rare enough that I’ve *never * known anyone who has one. Therefore, if there’s a kitty-litter pan in the house, odds are it has to be in the laundry or bathroom - either of which is pretty unpleasant (bear in mind this is very much a YMMV/IMHO kind of deal).
Essentially, I just tend to think that if you’re going to have a cat - or dog - the important thing is to keep it safe, which means keeping it away from other homes and the roads. If the only way to do that is to keep it inside 24/7 then so be it, but if you can conceivably enclose an area outdoors it’s kinder to give them the option to enjoy fresh air when they can.
Small derailment: it’s not mentioned much, but feral dogs are more the problem in the semi-rural areas as they have the kind of ‘pack mentality’ that cats lack. They are a huge problem for people with sheep and poultry, and have been known to savage larger livestock. Like cats, they hunt for sport and not just to live, but their prey is larger. This also includes native fauna, though dogs tend to prefer to hang around farms and go for the ‘easy’ targets.
Wow, thanks for the info, AskNott! As you can probably guess, I’m relatively new at (large-scale) gardening (and all the attendant worries), so I appreciate all the help I can get.
I may have to do (easily-liftable) sections for the rose bed, since they seem much happier with the mulch (which we use for water retention more than as a weed barrier). Our soil is very clay-ey out here, and in the 90-100 degree summers, it bakes brick-hard if it’s exposed to the sun. Ironically, we didn’t get the cat poop when we didn’t mulch the bed, since it was too hard to dig.
I’m glad it wasn’t me. While I confess to being a bit irritated on the subject, I was (as a new poster) trying to post in a calm and articulate manner. Have to make a good impression, right?
Back to the main point of the thread, another concern we’ve had regarding random encounters with stray cat poop while digging in the garden is the concern for toxoplasmosis. ISTR that domestic cats are supposed to be (?)immunized, but you never know.
I’m not sure about domestic cats being immunized; pregnant women aren’t supposed to clean the litter boxes, so I’m thinking that all cats can carry the virus.
No basements, Khiadra? Seems so weird to me. Basements are just assumed here. Different strokes for different folks, and all that. Of course, I just learned that New Zealand doesn’t heat or insulate their houses (I assume Australia is similar), which is also assumed here in Canada.
Yes, I have talked to them. They laugh and say, “Oh, just chase them away or spray them with the garden hose. That will teach them!” By the time I see the cats in our yard, it’s often too late, and I’ve never been able to get anywhere near our hose before the cat runs away. It’s not too practical to cover our dirt areas - our backyard is ringed by perennial flower beds, with one corner designated as “ok” for the kids to dig in.
I had heard about that chicken wire idea - a couple of people IRL told me it works like magic! With our well-treed, well-shrubbed yard and perennialed-to-the-max flowerbeds (all established by the previous owner - I take no credit!), I can’t imagine how long it would take to piece all that chicken wire together though. In our case, it would really be a major undertaking. While I’m sure it works, I’m not sure I’m up to the task, which is too bad. Besides, my point is that I don’t think I should have to do all that work to prevent a problem being caused by someone else’s pet!
My biggest problem with threads like this is people deciding what’s best for them and their neighbors, and then applying it to the world at large. You don’t think you should have outdoor cats in downtown Calgary? Fine. But what gives you the right to say that my cats can’t go outside, 600 miles away and in a completely different environment?
We do have one indoor cat. She’s very timid and doesn’t like to go out. The other cats are welcome to go out whenever they like as long as we’re home, and it’s not dark out. They almost always come home at night. We have no problem with predators stalking our property during the day, although there are plenty of coyotes, foxes, mountain lions, and so forth out at night.
Our house is settled near the back of our 55-acre property, so it’s a quarter-mile jaunt to the road. I’ve never seen the cats travel more than half the length of our driveway.
They love going out. When I go out to feed the goats and horses, I am usually accompanied by at least one cat. They take care of the mice around the property, lounge in the sun, “supervise” when I’m doing outdoor chores, and even hang out with the dogs and livestock.
To the best of my knowledge, none of the cats have ever been to a neighbor’s property, except for the cornfield behind us, and I don’t think he minds if the cats bury a little bit of extra fertilizer in his field.
My cats are happy, healthy housepets that spend time both inside and outside. Who do you think you are to tell me they should stay cooped up inside all the time?
However, this is simply the opinion of a vet, and her opinion is not borne out in actual statistics. Indeed, I don’t know if any actual statistics exist (for cats in the US). There are some papers that deal with issues of cat mortality via RTAs, e.g., Childs & Ross (1986; Am J Vet Res 47: 1643-1648). However, Childs & Ross only provide guesstimates at RTA mortality in free-ranging cats, and they provide no clear data on the longevity of outdoor-access vs. indoor-only cats.
In UK-based survey by Rochlitz (2003a,b; Vet Rec 153: 549-553 & 585-588), it was found that more than 40% of owned cats in the survey were over 10 years old. Clearly far from the 3-5 year nonsense that is often bandied about. True that the US is less amenable, in general, to free-roaming cats staying alive, but 3-5 years is still very unlikely. The UK survey did show that outdoor-access cats have a very real risk of being involved in an RTA though.
‘May’ and ‘often’? This is not the language of hard facts. Outdoor cats ‘may’ live past the age of 17. Indoor cats could live to only 2-3 years.
Again, averages are quoted with no evidence to back 'em up. Might as well pluck figures out of the air.
Do you have any cites that are worth anything? I.e., cites that use evidence?
We also do not know the nature of the ‘statistics’ in your quotes. For example, we do not know if stray cats are included in the mortality estimates.
Well, your cites are entirely inadequate - but this is not surprising because I don’t think there are any adequate sources of info easily available. However, I agree that an indoor cat is necessarily ‘crippled’.
If you live in an area that has toxoplasmosis, you probably already have it, and will for the rest of your life. Nearly everybody in Indiana and surrounding states has it. It may or may not shorten our lives by a couple of years. The birds have it, and you’ll never get them to stop pooping on your garden.
Excellent points. Not to be rude, but this thread isn’t really about your situation. If none of the reasons for keeping cats inside applies to you, then, well, don’t apply them to you. I would love to have my little moggies free-ranging with no fear of losing them or annoying the neighbours, but that’s not my reality.
I love my cat and feel that it is our responsibility to protect him, just as we protect and take care of our dog, our fish, our plants, our home, our vehicles … and of course if we had them, our children.
To me it is very irresponsible to let him outside where he could get lost or hurt or sick or killed.
This debate is really hard for me to understand - keeping a cat inside is not cruel or crippling in any way. They are domestic animals and it is up to their people to set the rules. If a cat cries or whines or destroys things in its frustration and “need” to get outside, then it is the responsibility of the owner to deal with that and find solutions.
My neighbours are not responsible for taking care of my pets. They deserve to have their yards free of my pet’s waste, and their pets unbothered by mine. They deserve to be able to drive down our street without worrying about running over my animals. It is very simple.
I just re-read your OP, featherlou, and it sure looks to me like you’re saying that nobody should let their cats go outside. You don’t say, “MY cats shouldn’t go outside,” or “SOME cats shouldn’t go outside.” You’re making a blanket indictment of people who let their cats out, and I called you on it.
But birds (and small mammals) don’t shed Toxoplasma oocysts in their droppings. Only felids do, since they’re the final host of the parasite. So unless you eat raw birds that you catch in your garden, you’re not likely to get toxo from them.
The last reference I read found a rate of seropositivity for Toxoplasma gondii of about 16% in the US population overall (for 1999-2000):
which is somewhat lower than I had learned in my training (20-50% depending on location).
And yes, an immunocompetent person will usually never know if they get acute toxoplasmosis, but it can be a major problem for immunocompromised hosts, as well as fetuses.
There is also some anecdotal evidence suggesting long-term alterations in behavior (such as depression) in Toxoplasma-infected immunocompetent people. Carl Zimmer’s book Parasite Rex has an interesting discussion of this subject.
My mistake. As far as I have been able to tell, there’s no animal vaccine available for toxoplasmosis. (I know there’s no human vaccine). BTW, Toxoplasma gondii is actually a protozoan parasite, distantly related to the malaria parasites (Plasmodium sp.)
It seems that houses out here in northern California often don’t have basements, either.
I just re-read my OP myself, and it seems pretty clear to me that I was talking about an urban situation, which yours obviously isn’t. I hadn’t given any thought to a rural situation like yours; please allow me to amend my OP to “Cats should be kept indoors unless you have circumstances that allow them to roam outside with no danger to them or annoyance to other people living around you.”
Well, folks in South Australia definitely *cool * their houses, and the vast majority - myself included - heat them in Winter. Insulation is standard too, though I doubt it’s on the same level you would in Canada, since Winter just isn’t that bitter. Pink batts in the ceiling are pretty much the standard to my knowledge. We’re also big on roller shutters on the windows, as they’re extremely effective at keeping heat out.
In SA, ducted evaporative air conditioning is extremely popular as the heat tends to be on the dry side. It’s horrid on those occasional humid days though, I can tell you. All but one person I know also heat their home in Winter, but the method seems reasonably evenly split between gas fire, log fire, combustion wood heater, gas wall heater and reverse-cycle aircon, so it’s a fairly pick-and-mix affair.
There you go; more than you ever wanted to know about heating/cooling/insulation. I now return you to your regularly scheduled cat-restraining programme.
She is an indoors only cat and is very, very active and happy. Sometimes she’ll appear as though she wants to go outside and play, she spends a lot of time in the windows “talking” (read: chirping) to the birds, the trees, the grass. If you go up to her while she’s peering out the window and ask her, she’ll “talk” to you to tell you what’s out there. She is very thin (we keep food out all the time for her), but very rambunctious. Her vet told us she’s very muscular and can tell she doesn’t sit still much.
I don’t think I could stomach having her outdoors. There are diseases that cats can get from each other just from rubbing against one another. Not that I think that’s what is best for everyone’s situation, just what works for us. I’d like to keep her for a long time, she’s a one-in-a-million type of cat. The kind where every other cat you’ll ever own will have some big shoes to fill. She’s just a doll. I know she wants to go outside, but I jsut can’t let her. We fill the void by giving her a place to perch in the windows and she has our two dogs to play with. She’s not lonely, I assure you.
On a side note, we have a “neighborhood” outdoor cat who travels from house to house. Well, recently he discovered we have a female cat and has started spraying on our front door - which sucks! But I don’t have the heart to call animal control because I’m sure they would put him down and he really is a sweet little bugger. So, count me as a vote for indoor cats, but I do know from experience barn cats are great too, they just don’t live long enough to get to really know them.
This is not the Pit, and that’s as impolite as I’m willing to get in IMHO.
All but one person I know also heat their home in Winter, but the method seems reasonably evenly split between gas fire, log fire, combustion wood heater, gas wall heater and reverse-cycle aircon, so it’s a fairly pick-and-mix affair.