The usage of “same” as a pronoun sounds stilted to me. I don’t hear it too often (in the US), but it’s out there. I’ve heard it quite a few times in the same situation: the security guards at DFW airport will say over the intercom: “Will the person who left a blue purse at the security checkpoint please return to claim same.” I’ve heard it so many times that I figure this must be their scripted way of saying that.
I think at a country or place is not terribly outdated in proper English.
Oscar Wilde springs to mind - I’ve seen that construction in "The Importance of being Ernest.
PG Woodhouse certainly used it - various young fops went water skiing (Can’t remember what PGW called waterskiing, but I seem to think he used some other word) at Cannes. In fact, didn’t Tuppy Glossop claim he had been practically inhaled by a shark while doing same?
I use same in the context described by ruadh. I wouldn’t have thought that there was naything peculiar or noteworthy about it, but maybe there is!
Native, midwestern United Statesian English speaker here; that use of “same” seems perfectly normal for stilted business-speak. “Please read the enclosed and reply in regard to same” or some-such sounds quite like many usages I’ve run across - however, the rest of that sentence (“I hope that you will be able to do the needful and intimate me your understanding of the matter. Please revert to me on the same”) sounds positively atrocious.
However, I maintain my opinion that the use of “at” instead of “in” in the examples described is not an incorrect usage but a dialectual feature. Indian English is a dialect in its own right, and it’s gonna sound funny to non-speakers - hell, Irish English and Saaf Lunnon (South London, i.e. Cockney, and believe it or not this IS the formal term for it) can be positively incomprehensible to my Merkin ass sometimes.
I think both suggestions that have been made here are true of Indian English – Indian English is a dialect all on its own that has its own usage patterns, often based on what to Americans or British speakers would consider a bit archaic. However, the language has been seized by the English-speaking populace of the country and is developing independent of American and British rules and standards. So the usage differences you see aren’t the result of mistakes or misperceptions or inabilities. Those differences are just characteristics of Indian English.
A lot of the convoluted business/bureaucratic language is descendant from the language of Victorian bureaucrats – “the same,” “on the 15th instant,” etc.
On the other hand, it is also true that Indian English usage is influenced by Indian languages as well as by conditions of Indian culture. There are many examples I can give from my experience with my own Indian relatives.
For example –
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“(Bride)groom” and “boy” are used interchangeably, as are “bride” and “girl.” Two people about to be married are a “boy” and a “girl,” regardless of their age (which might be quite advanced).
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“Marriage” is often used to mean “wedding” – in colloquial Bengali, the same word is used for both.
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A young man’s expression of romantic interest in a young girl is termed a “proposal,” even if he hasn’t literally asked the girl to marry him.
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A couple is not considered “engaged” until after a particular engagement ceremony has been performed, even if they have already agreed to marry.
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“Mutton” means goat’s meat (instead of sheep’s meat). My guess is that this usage was initiated by the British, who, while partaking of goat, didn’t wish to call it “goat.” Since sheep are not commonly eaten in India, “mutton” was available for use.
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An Indian will ask you “Where do you stay?” instead of “Where do you live?” Again, this is a translation of the Bengali phrase.
That’s all I can think of for now.
Anyway, back to the OP – with regard to the usage of “at” and “in,” it’s not easy to pin down exactly what is happening here, because the usage you describe – while different from contemporary American and British standard usage – is not really “incorrect” with regard to English as a whole. If you read English literature from Shakespeare to Austen and on, you’ll find quite a large variation in usage, especially when it comes to prepositions and such. Take a look at the language used by the Founding Fathers – there are several usages we’d consider “incorrect” today.
Having said that, thinking about how I’d say these phrases in Bengali – Bengali has a direct translation for “at,” which is used in the way described. The Bengali word for “in” really means something more like “inside” and would be inappropriate for this situation.
I guess the situation might be very similar for Hindi.
I’ve also heard this frequently in Scotland, and a couple times in San Francisco (spoken by black Americans).
Excalibre, Cockney is East London.
“Where do you stay?” is definitely Black English Vernacular. It’s a different idiom than “where do you live,” but makes just as much sense.
By the way, an Indian English word that I’ve heard a few times is “prepone” - you know, the opposite of “postpone.” As in “our meeting has been preponed from 3:00 to 2:30.” This one cracks me up because it’s so nonstandard in American English, but makes so much sense - we don’t have a word for that concept!
Indian English also makes enthusiastic use of abbreviations –
– “I am very enthu about this project.” - enthusiastic
– “My comp is not working.” - computer
And abbreviations are usually spoken as words in and of themselves, if possible.
– “We visited Delhi in Jan and Feb.” (pronounced “jan” and “feb” instead of extended to “January” and “February” as is correct in standard American English)
– “My son did very well on the SAT and has received admission at Harvard.” (prounced like the word “sat” instead of as “S.A.T.”) – similarly “sap” instead of “S.A.P.”
– “My cousin stays in Edison, N.J.” (prounounced “Enn-Jay” instead of as “New Jersey.”
Another usage I find odd – One “reverts to” instead of “replies to” a letter or an E-mail message.
– “Please revert speedily.”
Common in legal correspondence in Ireland.
Here is a cite that will clear your doubts. Try ‘in’ as well as ‘at’, and both will translate to the word, ‘mein’ (‘me.n’ on the cite). Hence the in/at interchange.
And the W&M that you call as trash is good enough for us to take your calls at the call centers.
Here’s another one I hear from my wife all the time – “for that reason” where I would expect something like “for that matter.”
Example –
A: “Is Susan married yet?”
B: “No. For that reason, she’s not even involved with anyone.”
I sometimes ask, “For what reason?” and she looks at me, perplexed.
What the hell? Noname, I am not entirely sure what you’re saying, but whatever it is looks like it’s inappropriate to GQ.
Anyway, here’s another illustration of a characteristic of Indian English – that “as” interloper.
“I call him as my brother” instead of “I call him my brother”
“I call him as ‘Vic.’” instead of “I call him ‘Vic.’”
Take it easy, Acsenray, I didn’t mean it in any sarcastic/combative manner. I only meant that the book that quicken78 calls rubbish has been responsible for the large English-speaking population of India, and they are good enough to be hired as call center executives by American and British companies. So surely, such a book can’t be all the trsh that it is made out to be. I am not sure how you took my statement, though.
Okay, Noname. I guess I misunderstood. Sorry. I didn’t catch on to what “W&M” was.
Anyway, the presence of what AmE and BrE speakers might consider archaic language is a major characteristic of Indian English.
Here’s another interesting usage –
Most white-collar offices in India employ one or more persons to run errands and do menial chores – unlock desks, switch on the lights and computers, fetch tea and coffee two or three times a day, fetch lunch orders from local vendors, book rail and air tickets, tidy up around the office, and numerous other business and personal tasks. This fellow’s job title is peon.
According to Webster’s, the use of same and the same in the ways previously described is not old or outdated yet – at least not in the U.S. I can imagine using it in more than just business English. I would think that it is used in recipes and debates, for example.