I know how it can seem that way.Many would agree with you. However, I’m not asking people to stop worshiping Christ or disregard his teachings. I completely agree with what Jesus said is the foundation. Love God, and love they neighbor.
Did Christ die for our sins? I would say yes. What I’m suggesting is that we rexamine what that sacrifice asks of us. Where do we go after we choose to believe?
That’s not to tricky. After studying the history of the Bible I no longer believe it is the infallible word of God. Like any other person I may agree with the authors on some points and not on others. That’s the quick answer but it’s a little more complicated than that. I don’t question the passages that ask us to believe in Jesus, or have faith in Jesus, or that through him we can know God. The passages that I struggle with are the ones that specifically use the word ransom, or that his blood was an atonement for the sins of the world. I don’t dismiss it. I just don’t accept the traditional interpretation.
My brother who is a wonderful Christian man suggested I read Leviticus to help me understand the atonement. Have you ever read it? It did zero to help. It tells how God {supposedly} commanded the Jews to twist the heads off birds and that according to God women who had girls were unclean longer than women who had boys. Puh-leeez. Since we know there was much disagreement in those first decades about Jesus and his teachings being an exstension of Judaism it doesn’t seem far fetched to me that the misunderstanding of Christs atonement sprang from trying to fit him into Jewish tradition.
There’s a lot of great stuff in the Bible and I find it moving and inspiring. I am still learning from it. I believe it is a tool but true spiritual learning comes from within. as in, The Spirit will guide you into all truth. I also believe in seek and ye shall find and James 1:5 If any lack wisdom let him ask of God. Since all mankind are children of God I think many religions have some truth mixed in with tradition and mans influence.
Once again. I wouldn’t disagree with this statement. That’s not what I’m saying. Yes, the purpose of Christ being here was to erase sin. I don’t accept the tradtional beliefs of how that works.
I don’t see how that is a problem. What are the guidelines for when a sould begins it’s mortal journey. Many believe in pre existance. All souls existed before the Earth came to be. “Before you were in the womb, I knew you”
Yes Yes, I completely agree it was for a purpose. Just as your life has purpose and mine as well. The example was in how Christ lived not how he died. His example showed us to live according to the will of God, not only in religious ceremonies but in moment to moment life. He lived love and truth completely and because he did death {and reincarnation} had no hold on him. His example showed that salvation was not just obeying the rules in a superficial sense but spiritually becoming one with God as Jesus was.
Neither do I my friend. We are both still seeking and there is more to discover.
I do believe we have a relationship with God. We have to remind ourselves that our relationship with each other is how that is expressed. I understand completely how the words of Christ affect you. Me too. I had several powerful spiriitual experinces that led me to Christianity and I was content there for some time. I’ve also had powerful spiritual experiences apart from Chritianity and that led me to realize that as Christ said, the kingdom of Heaven is within and the spirit will guide you, as well as other things. I find my beliefs reflected in the Bible and I don’t find illogical. I realize I have much more to learn but I trust in God for that.
Let me try and explain what doesn't make sense to me.
The basic belief is that Christs died for our sins and if we acknowledge him as Savior we are saved? Is that right?
Does that mean after we accept Jesus we can do whatever we want? Almost all Christians would say no. Well if Christ died to erase all our sins then why not?
Which sins won’t he erase?
So you might say that when the spirit enters us after we accept Jesus we are transformed? OKay. How much are we transformed? We don’t become perfect instantly do we? No of course not. So we’ve accepted JEsus, we can’t do whatever we want, but we’re not perfect so we still fall a little short. That makes my question , how much sin will God tolerate from us after we accept Jesus. DId Jesus teach believe in me and try to behave reasonbly well? Did JEsus teach believe in me and do your very best but don’t worry about it?
That’s the prevailing idea among Christians that doesn’t fit for me. It makes no sense.
Think, of course it is open to interpretation. We must interpret it. There is no other way. Name me one person who is not interpreting it. That’s what humans do.
While studying some scripture for this thread I found this
More seriously. I find it very inspiring that you and I are approaching the problem from opposite ends, as it were. I’ve never felt comfortable with “be ye perfect” and all the related references - I know that I’ll never be perfect, or even moderately good, no matter how long I have or how many attempts I get; assuming that, whatever “I” may be, it has the same basic character and personality as it does at the moment. My hope, in the theological sense, is based on the doctrine that Jesus took upon Himself all of my sins, and paid the penalty that I deserve. If I thought that I had to rely on my own efforts to reach a state where I’d be acceptable to God, I’d just give up and reconcile myself to my inevitable damnation; indeed, I quite often feel like that anyway, despite my professed belief in the Atonement.
To answer your question - I believe that God will tolerate all of our sins, both before and after we accept Jesus. Although I’d prefer to use the word “forgive”.
I don’t know how difficult you find your chosen path, but I know that it’s not one that I could follow. But - I think it’s a good thing that there can be many routes to the same ultimate goal.
I usually lurk, and I’ve been reading this thread with great interest, but I thought I’d jump in here and defend cosmosdan a little.
Frankly, I don’t understand why Trust and Joey Jo Jo are demanding that cosmosdan read the Bible as literally and as conservatively as they do. He acknowledges that he does not believe in much of what traditional Christianity has taught, he agrees that he does not believe the Bible is completely consistent and/or accurate, and he doesn’t even consider himself a Christian. Why do you expect him to read the Bible the same way you do when he admits that he is not even following the same faith as you? Comparing him to the KKK because he’s doing what Christians have been doing for 2000 years now is pretty darn offensive if you ask me, and I think it’s amazing that he responded with so much grace.
Let’s face the facts, the Bible is subject to interpretation, and literalists don’t read it as literally as they think. Even when you use language like “substitutionary atonement” and “Christ died to erase our sins”, you’re interpreting the Bible, just like cosmosdan. Calling anyone who disagrees with these theological points a heretic is pretty much ignoring 1000 years of Christian history and a pretty major Christian denomination.
Here again. You seem to assume that you and those that agree with you know God for who he is and those that don’t agree with you must simply be making up their own definition, yet somehow I am being stupid and offensive.
He didn’t huh?
If we strive to do these things sincerely and completely the rest will fall into place.
Interesting mental gymnastics there. One problem is that history and real life experience tells us you’re mistaken. We must listen to John to be able to love? That applies to all mankind? You realize that this was written as a letter from the author to a specific group addresses their specific issues right? I doubt the author wrote it with a “when this is in the Bible” concept. Looking honestly at the world of Christians and non Christians I see non Christians who sincerely offer sacrifical love to their fellow man. Now you’re telling me that it isn’t really love because of your interpretation of this scripture. Sorry, I believe the evidence of my own experience more than I believe your interpretation.
I guess I understand you taking it that way. I don’t intend it as arrogent to have the conviction to decide for myself what I believe. You’re not saying that the truth is a matter of popular vote are you? A few others have questioned the status quoe of Christianity. Martin Luther for one. Imagine the arrogence for him to dare question the church. When you think of it the ones who created the very doctrine you accept, said the Catholic church, which was basically all of Christianity for a long time, was wrong. Was that arrogence as well? I have no problem honestly admitting the things I don’t understand.
I didn’t pull that out of a void. Jesus said there were things that the apostles were not ready for before he was crucified. Paul admitted there were things he didn’t understand. All through the gospels the apostles struggled to try and understand what Jesus was teaching and weren’t always successful. They didn’t even consistently agree with each other. Does that reflect a perfect understanding of what Jesus taught? Not that any of the original apostles wrote and of the NT books anyway. Furthermore, I’ll thank you not to misrepresent my statements. I didn’t say I understood all aspects better. I said it seems possible {even probable} that the authors might not understand certain aspects
of what Jesus taught. It is possible that 2000 years of spiritual development and much wider access to information might be an advantage for a present day seeker.
are we allowed to question the validity of what Paul describes as his opinion when it comes to marriage? Should we just accept it and not think for ourselves because it’s Paul saying it?
Thanks for the support and the interesting links. I especially enjoyed the one about atonement. One of the problems I see in studying the Bible is that even if we manage to look it as “God’s inspiried word” the arguement then deteriorates into which verses are figurative and which ones are literal and “well what that actually means is” I have no problem with people choosing their own interpretation. What bothers me is those who refuse to see that they are interpreting it for themselves and allowing others that same privilage. Of course we can’t all be right but what I find likely is that none of us are right. We are each a unique mix of right and wrong as we walk our individual path.
I understand the feeling. I just think we can, through our choices and experiences of several lifetimes, become what Christ was, that is; one with God.
forgive is acceptable. Does that mean we can do anything and it will be forgiven? Hatred? {which Jesus compared to murder} Lust? {which Jesus compared to adultery} Those are pretty human, but it is possible to let them go.
It’s not so difficult. Along with learning to love there comes a certain peace and letting go of petty angers and contentions. Forgiveness of others and myself is quite joyful. It’s an intersting journey.
Remember, love and truth are a constant and unchanging as qualities of God. Our perception of these eternal qualities may be quite different as we walk our different paths with different experiences. If those qualities are what we really seek, sincerely, then the more truly we percieve them , the more our differences will fade.
Regarding the section I bolded. That’s funny. You really don’t know anyone? Who have we been talking about? Hint…his initials are JC.
**Joey ** I’ll say it again, When someone rejects a certain concept of God {either yours or mine} that doesn’t mean they want nothing to do with God. If they are seeking love and truth they are on the path but they have to find a way that is true and meaningful for them. They need a relationship with God, not a relationship with someone elses concept of God.
To help illustrate I’ll share a testimony with you.
I heard a sermon by a minister who was a counselor at a church collage. He talked to several students who were questioning the churches beliefs and expirimenting with other ideas and this worried him. He felt a responsibility to guide them back into the churches fold and save them from their doubt and spiritual danger. As he was walking and praying about how to approach it the impression came to him very clearly “Don’t interfere with them, they are in my hands. Trust me”
These kids were searching for their own relationship with God. Something more real than church tradition and what their parents said but something born of their own search and encounter with God’s guiding spirit. The minister out of a sense of duty was about to tell them they were wrong to do that and because of his sincere prayer was told. “Back off…I got this one”
If they seek sincerely {by God’s judgement not yours or mine} they will find. Thats the promise.
I never said they don’t matter at all, in any way, except in this way.
When faced with a choice, let’s say some confrontation with another person, the Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, and Atheists must choose how to respond. Choosing love and truth in that situation is choosing the path to God and choosing fear, and dishonesty, is choosing to remain apart. At the moment of that choice, what we may or may not believe about the next life is irrelevant.
Your sources are questionable and not a neutral observer. The quote you mention does seem pretty clear but it is taken out of context and is *attributed * to Origen. This link from the Encyclopedia of Philosophy claims otherwise. I will concede that the issue is in question and I should not state it as fact without further research.
Of course it isn’t. Spiritual transformation is the purpose of reincarnation.
I’ve tried to point out in this thread that it is mentioned in the Bible. The reason it isn’t more clear is that the early church decided it was herecy so writings that supported it clearly would not be considered scripture. I have a question. You believe the Bible is the inspired and infallible word of God right? Where is that doctrine supported in the Bible? Where is there any passage that indicates it was God’s plan and intention that we have one final and authoritative collection of writings to reveal his will and plan? Where is it? PLease show me.
Yeah, that’s what the church told MArtin Luther about his beliefs.
Again you reduce the truth to a popular vote. Atonement and reincarnation, here’s a possibility.
Through his sacrifice and sinless life Jesus conquered death, and rose again so that all mankind could be saved. He became the mediator, the bridge between Man and God. How do we cross that bridge? We can accept that the bridge is there but it takes action to cross it because faith without works is no faith at all.
By following the guide of the Holy Spirit to all truth we purify our souls in love and work out our salvation through a series of lives untile we become perfect as he is perfect and become one with the Father as JEsus was.
There have been people who believed in reincarnation and Jesus down through the years. I wasn’t the first to propose this and when I looked plenty of people who offered information. Perhaps no theologian who proposed it was taken seriously.
My basic belief is that if you believe in Christ, then you are saved, yes. Now in regards to the people who do not have a chance to believe in Christ, I do not make any opinion on them based on this. I rely on God to work out the details when it comes to this exception. The reason being, I would just be making guesses as to what will happen to people who do not have a chance of knowing Christ.
Speaking from only my personal experience, it is impossible to genuinely know Christ and to do whatever we want. The two do not go together. The easy answer to your question is that Christ erases all sins for those who believe in Him.
Once again speaking only from my personal experience, we are transformed. We become new. To non-believers this seems completely idiotic and at one time I would have thought the exact same thing. But I know the incredible day to day changes that took place in me and noone can deny that. Now here is where we differ in our interpretations of the bible. I do not believe that we have to reach a certain height in our search for God. The very essence of belief in Christ tells me that it does not matter how good I am. I would strongly argue that the very knowledge of being genuinely forgiven for any possible thing I could do is what sets me free. Because of that simple fact, I am a million times of a better person now than I was before I knew Christ. The root of our disagreement is the fact that I do not believe that it is even possible for people to come even close to being like Christ. It would be like me reaching for a star down here on earth with my little hands. It’s not gonna work. The very genius of the idea is that we have no idea what anyone else is going through. I am sure you see these people on tv all the time who have no freakin clue what Christ is about. They spout off the word Jesus for their own selfish reasons. Isn’t it obvious that they are not about dying to themselves? I grew up with the best parents anyone could probably ever ask for. Never once did they use the word “Jesus” or “Christ”. Hell, I didnt even know that Christmas had anything to do with a guy named Jesus. I had always looked up to people like Martin Luther King Jr. and Ghandi. Yet, I always knew that they had something other people didn’t. I just couldn’t put my finger on what was different about them. Now I know that they were simply following Christ’s example and died to their crosses. They never even had to say His name. I simply knew.
If I came across as being disrespectful, I apologize. Cosmosdan and I disagree on a lot of the smaller points. I have no problem at all with his viewpoints and I very well know that there are numerous other points that are equally valid. In my eyes, when we discuss things like this we come to know God better. The reason I probably sound slightly more harsh on this is because I strongly feel that Cosmosdan is not taking the intended view on Christ. That is why we are discussing in the first place. To understand each others viewpoint better.
Cosmosdan, It seems as if you are having a problem with believing that Christ takes away our sins because you do not understand how that is possible. That is a very logical argument. Let me try and explain my view on this. I will use another example in hopes that you will connect this example to how Christ takes away our sins.
Take the example of Free Will. It is not possible in human terms, to understand how God could make us have free will. The reason being, we only understand cause and effect. Pretend a human is making a body that runs by a program. The program simply responds to inputs that it receives and then provides the necessary outputs. Of coarse we can do all kinds of tricks to make him appear more real such as making him function randomly, or give him special artificial intelligence. But we still know that this computer does not have life. In this way, it does not make sense to us that God could have made us to have the attributes of spontenuity, or be free thinking. We simply do not have a mechanism by which this would work. However, it is fairly obvious that we have free will. At any time we can do whatever the hell we want. We understand that God could have made us this way, we just do not have a mechanism by which it would work. Now if you relate this to how Christ died for our sins, you will see what I am talking about. We do not have a mechanism by which Christ died for our sins. We have ideas as to what that could be. But we have to still rely on faith and scripture that Christ is who he is portrayed as being in the new testament. That is how we come to know who Christ is in the first place.
I think we differ here. I understand the feeling of spiritual salvation when one surrenders their heart to God and Christ. I understand the feeling of forgivness and incredible gratitude. I have great reverence for that experience. I do believe our journey continues after that experience.
Yes, according to the Bible it is impossible to truly know God and sin at all. And yet people who have accepted Christ do sin. How does that work? I think that profound experience is only beginng to know. Remember Paul said, “know we know in part , but then I will know as I am know” And
Remember the parable of the seeds when Christ described some seeds on rocky ground, some on fertile soil, some were choked by thorns. The seeds were the word of God. Not the written or spoken word but the living word which is the spirit that speaks to our heart. When we recieve that seed and it begins to grow there are seasons to follow. It doesn’t start out mature. I appreciate your feelings on the matter but how do you as a believer view the scipture that indicates this process of growth.
I think accepting Christ is the beginning of the transformation. Again, I understand the feeling you describe about not being able to measure up and be completely Christ like, and yet, there are many scriptures saying exactly that. How do you view those scriptures? Of course you must believe God *could * create a way for us to be perfected spiritually as Christ was. I believe he did and that path includes reincarnation.
Interesting you should mention Gandhi. I have great respect for Gandhi and have several books of his writings. I feel strongly that he was a holy man who communed with God, yet he remained a Hindu all his life. He’s one of the reasons I feel like I do. Many Christians would say if Gandhi did not accept Christ as savior he went to hell regardless of the fact that he devoted his life to service to others and a pursuit of truth and love. To me that denies all the scriptures that indicates otherwise.
I don’t really have a problem believeing it. I think we just disagree somewhat on how the process actually unfolds.
In the beginng that’s true but the Bible tells us we can understand spiritual things with the guidence of the spirit. As a 3rd grader we can’t comprehend what a college professor might teach but with faith patience and some disclipline we can get there. Thats how I see it, and the Bible supports it.
Let’s recap I don’t think we have that many differences.
We both believe that faith in Christ will lead to salvation although we disagree on the process.
I believe that sincere people from any or no religion are on the path to God if they seek love and truth. You seem to believe this but I’m not really sure.
I appreciate your willingness to continue our discussion. It apears Joey thinks I’m too arrogent to continue to talk with. I agree with your previous post. Being able to discuss things with people we don’t agree with promtes mutual understanding as well as helping us examine and challenge our own beliefs.
Sincere thanks.
I think we just have to agree to disagree. I just do not see enough evidence for reincarnation and I consider it a non-issue. I have no problem talking about it with you however.
Just because we have accepted Christ does not mean that we are always able to truly see God at every second of our lives. We are still able and still do make poor decisions. I have no idea what that quote means lol. I know that God says “I am is I am” or something like that. So maybe if we are know God we know so we know
The process of growth is a huge part of a Christians life. I make a huge distinction between receiving salvation and the process of growth. Just because someone receives salvation does not mean that they are always going to be able to follow Christs example perfectly. I do know that a real relationship with Christ leads to incredibly great things. Our church within the past year gave out over 100,000 meals for thanksgiving, gave hundreds of presents to kids whose parents are in prison who otherwise wouldnt have had presents, partnered with www.xxxchurch.com, built the largest AIDS hospice is South Africa, built a bigger church to hold 3000 people (we still need 4 services), and just closed on the citylink center which will feed less fortunate people in the Cincinnati area. And this is just a secondary goal. The main goal is to come to know Christ. Everything else follows naturally.
I consider those scriptures that say to be perfect like our father to mean what they sound like… To be just like your father. I just dont think it is meant to be taken completely seriously as in something that is attainable during this life. That would kind of take away the point of Christ for me and the perfect idea of Christ.
Based on everything I know about Ghandi, I would have to agree with you on this point. Now of coarse I have no idea what went through his thoughts so I cannot come close to being a perfect judge. I do feel that Ghandi followed Christ a million times more than a lot of people I know. I really cannot make judgements on the exceptions. I leave it to God.
The one question I am curious about is this. How can you say that this life is about reaching a certain spiritual level? The reason I ask is because, who do you know that is even close to being like Christ? There are so few people who are like Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Mother Teresa etc. That would imply that, what, like a few hundred people ever get saved before this earth and life ends?
“Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.”
I Corinthians 13:4-8a (NIV)
Love is not proud? I always thought to myself that the writers of this surely made a mistake. How could love not be proud? Of coarse love is proud. Now I have come to realize that love has nothing to do with pride. When you are proud of someone, you love them for their accomplishments. God does not love us for our accomplishments. Besides, what accomplishments? We have none. I honestly believe that when you let go of this feeling of constantly trying to be perfect and you believe in Christ, that you become perfect like our father. Not by our doing, but by grace. That is why I do not believe in a spiritual goal as you put it.
That’s awesome. I know other churches are doing a lot to feed the poor and other things Christ commanded. A friend of mine goes to a methodist church that shelters and feeds the homless. It’s great.
Thats a good question. Sometimes I think this world is like a grade in grade school and once you grow beyond it you move on to another place of higher learning although we have not yet “graduated” Dr. Wayne Dyer has a CD set out called the Power of Intention that mentions this. There are very few spiritual giants that come to earth. The Bible says God created worlds without end and in my father’s house are many mansions. It even mentions a man caught up to the third heaven.
So, I think it’s likley that people can move on from this earth before they achieve a true CHristlike stature.
Honestly cosmosdan, I don’t think I would have any qualms at all with you if you decided to consider yourself a Christian. It sounds to me like you’re truly seeking a relationship with God, and to follow Christ, which is pretty much my definition of a Christian. You may not believe in salvation the same way much of mainstream Christianity does, but frankly, neither do I. I may not go so far as to consider reincarnation, but I really don’t consider that essential at all- if we know that we are indeed guaranteed our salvation through Jesus, but disagree on what that salvation means, I would gladly welcome you as a brother in Christ.
True spiritual growth and communion with the Holy Spirit removes pride. You realize you are part of the larger whole and there’s no sense of “Look what I have done” It’s more of a sense of gratitude and joyous particpation and anticipation. I’m not a perfectionist in the traditional sense of the word. I have plenty of imperfections. I believe that the day to day experience of life is there to help us toward this spiritual perfection. It’s not a personal accomplishment. You use what you have as best you can and more will be given. If someone really pisses me off I try to see what I learn about myself from that. I want to learn how to let it go and forgive because I am aware that I need forgiveness.
It’s okay that our paths are different. One doesn’t have to be right and the other wrong. The important thing is to find the path that is your path given born from within yourself.
I made the decision to not call myself a Christian for a couple of reasons. 1 All the attention the religious right are getting. I am throughly disgusted with the likes of Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Pat Robinson and others useing the name of Christ to justify their hatefulness. 2. In general I think Christianity is clinging to some traditional beliefs that point in the wrong direction. That being said I know there are many wonderful loving sincere people who embrace Christianity and thats great. I look at the spirit driving the person not the title. When I meet someone who says “I’m a Christian” it doesn’t tell me anything about what kind of person they are. It seems to me that it should because they are saying " I follow and worship Jesus"
I have friends and family from with various beliefs including a atheist or two. Love is love and my atheist sister gives of herself to help strangers by doing volunteer work and has a keen insight into people needing an emotional boost from a kind word a phone call or letter. It does seem to me that there is an inner decision about what kind of person we want to be, what we place value on, that is different from what religious beliefs we hold in some intellectual place. I think God sees that inner decision. I wish more Christians were as open minded as you are. and again my sincere thanks.
