First, it is physically impossible for us to deport all the illegals even if wanted to. Second, I do realize that food prices would goup. And then the gov’t would be forced to deal with the problem and institute some type of guest worker program. That is the answer, not turning a blind eye to illegal immigration. Especially in a post-9/11 world.
I said a free education because I know of at least 2 people that got loans for their education and after getting the diploma, went back to their origional country to work and never repaid the loan. If thats not free education I don’t know what is.
I can’t PROVE that having illegals in our colleges keeps our kids from enrolling but let me tell you this. My oldest son (18) applied for some classes at the local college and was turned down BECAUSE THE CLASSES WERE FULL. For every one illegal alien student, there is one LEGAL student without a seat. It’s not fair that my child, with a 3.85 grade average, was turned away because of a law allowing only a certain amount of “poor” students per capita. He was eligible for a scholarship because of our income but cannot start school till next semester because of full classes.
So since you have basically free schools there then WHY are so many people coming here illegally saying “I want Paco to have a better education than he can get in Mexico”? Why don’t they stay there and let their kids go to school for free? Good grief if I was able to send my boys to college for free I DAMN sure would. Setter than having to pay 50,000 for tuition. :eek:
I said a free education because I know of at least 2 people that got loans for their education and after getting the diploma, went back to their origional country to work and never repaid the loan. If thats not free education I don’t know what is.
I can’t PROVE that having illegals in our colleges keeps our kids from enrolling but let me tell you this. My oldest son (18) applied for some classes at the local college and was turned down BECAUSE THE CLASSES WERE FULL. For every one illegal alien student, there is one LEGAL student without a seat. It’s not fair that my child, with a 3.85 grade average, was turned away because of a law allowing only a certain amount of “poor” students per capita. He was eligible for a scholarship because of our income but cannot start school till next semester because of full classes.
So since you have basically free schools there then WHY are so many people coming here illegally saying “I want Paco to have a better education than he can get in Mexico”? Why don’t they stay there and let their kids go to school for free? Good grief if I was able to send my boys to college for free I DAMN sure would. Better than having to pay 50,000 for tuition. :eek:
I know you live in a black and white world where things are right or wrong and there is no shade in between but that is not how the real world is.
You are not the president of the USA, you are not the Congress of the USA and you are not the Supreme Court of the USA. they are the ones who rule the country and they represent the American people as a whole, not you. And the Government has decided to turn a blind eye to a certain amount of illegal immigration and they have their reasons to do this like allowing certain industries to survive and like not spending billions chasing a few aliens. that is their decision so it is just utterly irrelevant for you to say they should not be here. They are here and they live and work here and they pay taxes here. Deal with it.
If I park my car illegally in front of your house you cannot just go out and destroy my car because “it shouldn’t be there”. It is still my car and I have certain rights. You can’t just steal my car because I parked it in your space.
If illegal aliens pay taxes just like an American they should be entitled to the same things Americans get for their taxes. Making them pay taxes and denying them the services is plain stealing from them.
I have said it many times and I will say it again. It makes me sick that people who are understanding with infractions or crimes when done by Americans are ruthless when it is an immigrant. In threads like this you get plenty of people saying the illegals deserve anything they get even if those immigrants are honest, hard working people who have done no harm. But look at other threads and you see people talking about Americans doing all sorts of harmful, antisocial, things and yet everybody is understanding and few if any will condemn those things. What a shameful double standard! In recent threads people have mentioned dumping motor oil on the ground and carrying bleach in an airplane. Both things are illegal. Bleach is an airplane is dangerous. But no one said a single word of condemnation. Because we imagine ourselves doing something like that. But we do not imagine ourselves as children of parents so desperate to give us a better life they would travel to a strange country to provide for us. Those people are contemptible because they are not us and we do not imagine we could be them. that is the difference. When they break the law no pusnishment is enough. Punish them and punish their children. But when an American breaks the law that is a different matter for we know everyone has broken the law at one point or another, even if by mistake, and then we are understanding. We grant rights to American criminals which we have no problem denying hones people who were born on the wrong side of the border. It makes me sick.
Sailor:
I think we need to get some facts on the table to make this debate more rational. While there may be several different “levels” of illegal aliens, I think the main discussion here is someone deliberately sneaking across the border with absolutely no documentation at all. (As opposed to someone who comes here on a student visa and hasn’t gotten around to taking it to the next step of getting a green card yet).
If we limit our discussion to those indiividuals, what do you propose that the police do to someone who is found to be in the country illegally? If we have an immigration lawyer in the house, I’d be interested in knowing what the actual procedure is for dealing with this situation.
I’m with John Mace on this issue. For one thing, the illegal immigrants have circumvented the steps involved in legally immigrating. Some of those steps, you might recall, include health and background checks. John ably addressed the difference in sneaking into the country and those who are attempting to change from one legal status to another legal status.
I would also be willing to pay more for groceries, provided the government started enforcing penalties against the employers who hire people illegally.
Except that is not the topic being discussed in this thread. The topic in this thread assumes as a fact that those people are in fact in the country and asks if they should enjoy a certain benefit.
We have already had threads asking what should or could be done about illegal immigration and I have participated in some so you can find my opinions there. This is not what we are discussing here though.
Two foreign students who didn’t pay back student loans! American students do that all the time…besides PP why can’t you get a grasp on the OP which is about them PAYING for their college education. Nobody mentioned grants or loans.
**
Ummmm…well I know a guy that wasn’t an illegal alien, and he murdered somebody. So when I call all non-illegal aliens murderes, I don’t want you to be offended, ok? I mean if thats not murder then I don’t know what is, right?
All kinds of people skip out on their loans. I know at least three people that arn’t paying up, and not a single one of them is an illagal alien. This particular scam has nothing at all to do with one’s immigration status. Unless you want to argue that immigrants and their children are generally untrustworthy.
**
Wah wah wah. Colleges are comptetative. There are only so many seat availible in any college. Your oh-so-smart kid obviously didn’t measure up I didn’t get into Berkeley either. Do I go around blaming illegal immigrants? No. I blame my own self for not measuring up to their standards.
Anyway, unless you are argueing that no immigrants should ever get an education anywhere (which would be a pretty extreme stance) then you can’t really argue that they are taking away a seat from your son. The issue at hand is if they should qualify for in-state tuition, not if they should be allowed into college. Yes, out-of-state tuition would outprice a lot of people from college. But frankly I don’t think your aparently academically inferior son deserves that seat just because he is better able to pay for it.
**
Because their kids grew up here and are Americans, even if their legal status is not up to par. We are talking about people around the age of eighteen who have been here at the very least through high school, and most likely they have grown up here and America is all they know. They are just as interested in being American and staying in America as any other non-immigrant teenager.
Why slough the responsibilty off on employers? Why should they have to pay for the failure of the government to control the borders? How many people are hired everyday in the USA? How can an employer be sure that a person is legal or not?
John Mace , I should clarify my earlier post further. The OP is discussing whetehr the state of Oregon should or should not allow illegal immigrants to pay reduced tuition. The State of Oregon does not control immigration, which is a Federal matter so, a question asking “should the state of Oregon do X?” cannot be answered by saying “The feds should do Y”. You might as well answer “Mexico should be better organized so these people were not forced to come over”. It is a non-answer to the proposed question which assumes things as they really are and not as they could be if there were not as they are.
Maybe when it’s time for my son to go to college out-of -state, I’ll just have him become a Mexican citizen, sneak into this country illegally, move to Oregon, and save thousands of dollars.
The a-holes should be deported as soon as they try to enroll. Straight from the university, back to the shithole they came from. They are criminals, plain and simple.
There are some significant instances of employers in cahoots with illegal alien smuggling rings to secure cheap labor. But otherwise, yeah it’s hard to turn employers into INS agents. Especially since our tradition in this country is not to require citizens to carry any type of “papers” to prove they are citizens. Employers could easily be subject to discrimination lawsuits if they required background checks on every employee with an accent.
That would be pretty stupid because your son can move to Oregon and enjoy in-state tuition without becoming a mexican citizen. I am not sure what your point is or may be or is there is a point.
That is disgusting. People like you make me ashamed. I just hope you are a minority. A small minority.
No fella it’s not plain and simple, unless you are speaking of your mental capacity.
What I find most interesting about the whole issue is that is completely contradicts the residency-determination rules in my state. I don’t know about Oregon, and I’m too lazy to check, but in Kentucky your residency status is often based on that of your parents. A student can be born and raised in Kentucky, live there all their lives, and be denied in-state tuition because the parents moved to another state when the student was 20.
Crazy, but true. If you haven’t yet finished a bachelor’s degree, gotten married or had a child, and you’re under 24 (or was it 25, I don’t remember anymore) the federal government considers you a dependent student for purposes of financial aid, and at least one state follows those guidelines when determining residency status. If you’re classed as a “dependent student” and your parents are not legal residents of the state, no in-state tuition for you. Too bad, so sad, sorry 'bout your luck.
If Oregon has similar “dependent student” policies when determining in-state status, then the proposed law is a big, steaming pile of crap. If not, then I’m pretty neutral on the subject.
sailor:
Slightly off topic, but…
Holy shit, sailor, that’s gotta be the lamest argument I’ve seen on these here boards. The government has decided to do something, so just shut up and deal with it, because it’s none of your business? Well, gee, I’ll remember that next time you say anything about one of Bush’s actions that isn’t unadulterated fawning. Really, though, which part of “…government of the people, yadda yadda…” don’t you follow?
Anyway, back to the issue at hand:
Generally, I think illegal aliens should be offered absolutely zero services, with the exception of emergency life-saving procedures if, for example, they get hit by a car. And yes, sailor, I agree that they shouldn’t have to pay any taxes. And when they come to claim their refund on all taxes they’ve paid, we’ll ship them off to their nation of origin, and cut them a check for all the taxes they paid, minus the cost of the trip home. Sounds great. It’s not about punishing illegals for being “contemptible”, as sailor likes to think, it’s about not rewarding them for breaking the law. We have laws for a reason, and it’s important that people follow them. People do not have the ability to decide which laws are okay and which ones aren’t for themselves - society can’t function like that. If the immigration laws are bad - and I, for one, think they could stand some serious revision - change them. Don’t just let people break them blithely, and turn a blind eye. But until then, enforce them. I’m not talking about nationwide man-hunts, but can’t we at least draw the line at refusing to give them taxpayer-funded handouts?
However, the situation for minors is different. Little Jorge has no choice about where he grows up, so we should offer him a little bit of slack. Note, I said “little”. This Oregon measure sounds fair enough… If they came over when they were minors, and they’ve been living in the state for three years, and they’re in the process of becoming legal, yeah, let 'em in with in-state rates. Actually, I would make one change - I would make them become legal before they get the rate cut. Not full citizenship, but at least a student Visa, or something.
This would act as an incentive for illegals to obtain legitimacy, and encourage people to follow the laws. Certainly better than the “Break the law long enough and we’ll reward you!” mentality behind things like offering driver’s licenses to illegals, and such.
Jeff
CCL:
Wow, that blows. Does that apply even if your parents move in the middle of your college career? Say, you get in-state tuition rates for two years, then your folks move to Maine… do you still have to start paying out-of-state rates?
If so, can’t quite see the logic there. I’ve always assumed in-state tuition rates were based on the reasoning that in-state students were more likely to stick around after college, thus helping out the state’s economy. But would a graduate be likely to move to a state they’d never lived in before, just because their parents moved there? I’d think they’d tend to stay where they’d grown up all their lives, but maybe I’m wrong.
Jeff
No, you are totally missing the point which I have already explained but I will explain again: the question is what should the State of Oregon do given that the situation is what it is. It is not up to the State of Oregon to change the immigration situation which is decided by the Feds. If you want to discuss immigration policy then you can start another thread but the discussion here is not that, it is whether, things being the way they are, what should the state of Oregon do. Saying, the What the Federal government or what the Mexican government should do is a non answer.
It’s not uncommon for parents to have their kids finish the last few years of highschool in a different state (than where the parents live) in order to get them into that state’s university at a cheap rate. The kids may live with a friend or realative. I’m guessing that is the reason for the rule.