In "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance", was that indeed cold blooded murder?

ENDING SPOILERS FOR THE FILM

In the ending you see John Wayne’s character open fire from a hidden area to save Jimmy Stewart’s character from Liberty Valance who has openly said he will kill Jimmy Stewart if he doesn’t leave town. John Wayne himself describes it as “Cold blooded murder, but I can live with it.”

But was it murder? Or self-defense?

Here are the facts

  1. Local law enforcement is completely useless to prosecute Liberty Valance for his crimes.

  2. Liberty Valance has openly said he plans on killing Stewart if he doesn’t leave town

  3. Liberty Valance opened fire first to disarm Stewart before openly saying he was next going for the kill shot.

  4. John Wayne opens fire on Liberty after Stewart fires and almost simultaneously with Liberty Valance.

With those facts, did John Wayne commit murder? He was defending his friend who was already been shot and injured by Valance, but he also did not announce his presence and quickly dispatched Liberty from afar.

In both frontier times (I believe the film took place in the 1880’s in Arizona) and also today, if I were to kill somebody who was openly going to kill my friend, would that be seen as self-defense or murder? Has anyone been actually prosecuted for murder in a similar scenario?

Of course not. Lee Marvin had a gun on Stewart and was fixin’ to shoot him. Wayne shooting him first was a clean kill. Maybe cold-blooded, but definitely not murder - merely smart. It’s always smarter to kill someone before they see you.

Just to be sure, let’s have George Lucas tweak it a bit.

It was a life saving intervention. I’d give him a medal and dump Valance in an unmarked grave.

I can only answer based on my states laws and not the laws of the unnamed territory the movie took place in. It’s going to sound text bookish as it comes directly from my training.

Self defense also includes defense of others. Behavior which justifies the use of deadly force is that which has caused or imminently threatens to cause death or great bodily harm to you or another person or persons.

3 things usually must be present:
*Intent
*Weapon or other tool
*Delivery system

Liberty Valance stated his intent. Intent doesn’t have to be verbal or written. Certain actions (like shooting at someone or even pointing a weapon at someone) can imply intent.
He had a weapon and already used it, solidifying that he had a weapon and intent.
Valance had a delivery system as he was within line of sight of his intended target and was able to get closer.

What Tom Doniphon (John Wayne) did was a justifiable homicide, not cold blooded murder.

Things were different in the Wild West.

Whereas in civilization The Law is found in statutes and books and practiced in a courtroom.

On the Frontier, the Law was what you carried in the holster on your hip.

Some people just needed killin’.

In the territories many towns established their own laws. In the movie the Sheriff was just a wuss who wouldn’t enforce them. There was also U.S. Marshals that enforced federal laws in the territories.
As it stands I don’t see anything Doniphon did that could be considered illegal under any law.

I was thinking, Doniphon may have thought since it was a “Duel” him interfering was technically murder, but would it being a duel change anything?

Agreed – may even have been the laws of the territory at the time. A justifiable intervention to stop a criminal assault. Which however he had to conceal because social mores look down on doing so other than one-on-one face-to-face.

Yeah, that people would consider it murder because it wasn’t a fair fight.

I’m in general agreement here, but let me side-topic off to a similar scenario:

SPOILERS BELOW ____



In The Shootist John Wayne’s character, after surviving a gun battle against three opponents, gets shot in the back by a bartender. Ron Howard, his young friend, comes in, picks up Wayne’s gun and, as the bartender is clearly reloading his shotgun, shoots the bartender three times, killing him.

Justifiable homicide? I don’t know if you could call it murder as it was not pre-meditated, but manslaughter… Thoughts?

One factor that may be important is what happens afterwards- Wayne’s character keeps his action a secret, whixh a prosecutor might use as evidence of a guilty mind.

Yes. Justifiable homicide. He killed the man in defense of himself and another.

Depending on jurisdiction, there might be other relevant factors, like whether it was possible to protect the other person short of lethal force. But even with that, it still looks like the law would be on John Wayne’s side.

John Wayne’s character doesn’t use the law to define what right and wrong is. His personal code says that you don’t shoot a man in the back (or when he ain’t lookin’). In his mind he did indeed commit cold blooded murder.

But I presume his code says that a fight should be fair - threatening and then acting to shoot someone who is not familair with a weapon and basically incapable of winning a shoot-out is also an offense against his code. (Something akin to “pick on someone your own size” logic)

But then we’re left with saying “By his personal code, it’s prohibited, but it’s OK, because by his personal code, it’s all right”.

You may infer this but Doniphon never expresses any “personal code”, and in fact he has no problem with Pompey taking aim on Valance and his crew in the steakhouse from concealment. In fact, Doniphon seems to be highly pragmatic in his affairs up until the point that he makes the decision to tacitly grant Ranse the credit for killing Liberty Valance, which gives the latter the celebrity to run for office (which Doniphon later spurs him onto when admitting that he, and not Ranse, bears responsibility for the death) and campaign for statehood.

In fact, there is a dual paradox here: Doniphon, who likes the way things are and has no problem with the lawlessness of the ‘Old West’ where his strength and cunning give him advantage, recognizes that the inevitable future of statehood that Ranse is bringing: law and order, education and literacy, and ultimately ‘giving’ Hallie over to Ranse; while Ranse forgoes his strongly stated beliefs that the law must prevail, provoking and then (in his mistaken belief) killing Valance in a street duel. Even when he learns the truth, he is cajoled into accepting the credit so that he may be “the legend” and carries with him the guilt of taking from Doniphon everything he values. He bears the ‘lie’ that he is the man who shot Liberty Valance, an act that ironically gives him credence for bringing law and order to Shinbone.

As for the legality of the shooting, Valance is clearly a public menace who not only brutally beats an unarmed and unresisting Ranse but routinely robs stagecoaches, attacks smallholders at the behest of free range cattle barons, and nearly kills the newspaper owner and destroys his press. Dueling, while not uncommon in the West (although not to the extent that movies would have you believe), was at best extra-legal and often explicitly illegal inside of municipalities, and so both participants would be in the wrong. However, Valance had already disarmed Ranse who ineffectually provoked him (as Valance could have ignored the taunts and just walked out the back), and compelled Ranse to pick up the pistol he had already shot out of his hand, so he could scarcely claim to be acting in self-defense.

On the other hand, Doniphon would have a strong case (especially under ‘Western’ defense law) that he was acting in exigent circumstances and in absence of the presence of law enforcement to prevent homicide and further violence and bloodshed, and that he had no other effective recourse as Valance had a pistol in hand and was out of grappling range. A intercessor in such circumstances has no duty to announce or expose themselves in a ‘fair’ fight.

The film is steeped in the false mythologizing of the “Old West” which director John Ford was substantially responsible for creating, and is an essential precursor to films like The Wild Bunch and Unforgiven. That he got John Wayne—one of the most arrogant, self-absorbed actors of that generation—to appear in it as a supporting player to Jimmy Stewart adds yet another layer of metatextural commentary.

Stranger

And Ford himself had already prefigured the “print the legend” angle at least once, at the end of Fort Apache where Wayne’s character says to press men that popular glorified portrayals of the former commander’s last battle were accurate, when we know better. He knew he was doing that (he did not create the myth but he took its portrayal to great heights and helped give it a wider and longer reach).

I don’t know what the law was in fictional nineteenth century territories, but the notion that one had to consider nonlethal means to stop a lethal threat is ridiculous.
This brings up the concept of Preclusion where one reasonably believes other tactics or tools have been exhausted or would be ineffective. If a subject is threatening me with, or shooting at me with a firearm it would not be reasonable for me to draw pepper spray or a Taser.