In this age of compulsory education how does black ghetto grammar survive?

In My Humble Opinion
41

[QUOTE=astro]
Odd… the users of the particular version of AAE I am referring to consistently use the term 'Ghetto", often proudly or humorously, as an identifier for behaviors, actions and things they determine as belonging to that cultural lifestyle set. I would think you would have more respect for their self chosen identifiers.

[/QUOTE]

Many black people call other black people ‘nigger.’ I’m white, and I’m not about to start copying that usage.
(ETA: so it turns out that this is a double post, and not the last. Sorry again.)

42

[QUOTE=Frylock]
You missed the point. You’ve incorrectly assumed that the people you’re thinking of can’t speak standard English. They can and do–just not with each other, and not in informal contexts.

-FrL-
[/QUOTE]

I haven’t seen this. Possibly Bill Cosby’s point about not being able to “switch” was at issue here. I deal with black people on substantial business transactions (typically leasing) all the time. Older black people (even poor ones) can switch. Younger middle class and upper middle class black students can, and do, easily switch between informal black English, and (often exceptional) standard English. Poor black kids, and young adults cannot, in my experience, carry this off.

43

There’s this video, which is not on YouTube, unfortunately, of Walt Wolfram in a class room with about a dozen African American boys, around the age of 10. He’s teaching them the rules of the aspectual system of AAE, using examples, explaining the rules and how they’re regular. The kids are so into it. They’re raising their hands, correcting each other, all over a grammar lesson.

What is not shown in the video is that these kids are the remedial kids and the ones that can’t be in the regular classrooms because of their bad behavior. And here they are, so excited to learn. This is what I mean by respecting their dialect and empowerment. AAE has regular rules, and if you can teach African American kids that they’re language is just as good as standard English, just as regular and precise and expansive, you can then go on to teach them standard English. If you can make the kid literate in his home dialect (or language), they can then go on to learn standard English better. They can also not feel ashamed to use AAE.

These kids already know they speak a stigmatized dialect, and that knowing the standard will help them. Many, if not most, are bidialectal. Those who are not, the school system is failing them. I think it’s also a failing if AAE is wiped out (unless, of course, the students themselves choose that).

I hope that clears things up a little.

44

[QUOTE=astro]
Also, I’m not going to lump this into the big AAE basket of generalized black language, as to the the particular dialect of Ghetto speak is (to my non-linguist ears) considerably different than the spoken language of middle class black people. If you want me to term it UAEE for underclass AEE that’s fine, but “Ghetto Speak/UAEE” is (to me) a considerably different animal than the more generalized AAE.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not going to get into a semantic debate with you. The linguistic term AAE covers a wide range of speech, which what you call “ghetto” falls into. Using terms like “underclass” and “ghetto” are derogatory, whether or not the speakers themselves use it. You are not a speaker of this dialect, so that excuse does not fly with me. What you are referring to is just the most vernacular end of the AAE spectrum. It is most likely not that different from middle class AAE, except in the percentage of vernacular variables used.

Take that for what its worth, but just know that your use of these imprecise and offensive terms are not helping your case.

45

A company that I worked for had a sister company in a Southern state whos population consisted mostly of black folk. The sister company started offering promotions and company paid transfers for existing employees because they had a hard time hiring well-fit people to fill their chairs.

Number one problem was the dialect. They even brought in a well educated black woman for training and boy oh boy did she lay in to these people. I just kept thinking “if a white person was saying this stuff the company would have one hell of a lawsuit”. Granted, it wasnt all black people - there were a few whites as well. The difference - the whites seemed to really want the job and made an effort to speak semi-proper english where as a majority of the blacks did not. A few of them cried discrimination but the trainer pointed out that their call center wasnt going to last long if customers called and couldnt understand the person on the other end (think of how we feel when get India reps for customer service) and sure enough it closed down because they couldnt find and keep enough good help and the company acquired another call center in a midwestern state.

If it’s on a social level - go ahead and chat away in whatever language you want! But if you want to be taken seriously, especially in business matters, best to go with the National Language (that is still English, isnt it?) and speak it correctly (for example - it is ASK, not aks/axe)

46

[QUOTE=astro]
Odd… the users of the particular version of AAE I am referring to consistently use the term 'Ghetto", often proudly or humorously, as an identifier for behaviors, actions and things they determine as belonging to that cultural lifestyle set. I would think you would have more respect for their self chosen identifiers.
[/quote]
Many blacks also refer to themselves as “nigga” in a friendly tone with no condescending connotations. But when an outsider says that, the standard presumption is exactly opposite. It would take an extreme amount of social effort for a pasty-faced white dude to build up enough credibility to safely use the word with no possibility of a racially charged misunderstanding, and even then, it would only work among a very small group of friends, and not generally.

On the boards, we’re all strangers for the most part, so it’s best for our discussion here for us to use more technical terminology, divested of social baggage, in order to avoid any possible derogatory implications.

The problem in this particular thread is that we have no cites about how many black Americans are fluent only in AAVE (African American Vernacular English - the stuff I’ve read normally puts in the “V”) and not in Standard English. Overhearing a conversation is not sufficient, because of the difference in registers. They have no reason to speak White Man’s English if they’re talking among themselves.

But, yes, it’s true that some kids are blamed for “acting white” when they speak the standard language. The thing is, though, that I have no cites about how prevalent this problem is. I just have anecdotes from individuals like Pam Spaulding who went through such a terrible experience. And I personally don’t know how we’d go about measuring the problem, let alone fixing it.

But I think liberty has already posted an excellent example. In many respects, AAVE is kinda like a different language. If they become fluent in their own dialect, it might help them become fluent in Standard English, which will open opportunities for them, not just in the United States but also internationally.

47

[QUOTE=astro]
I haven’t seen this. Possibly Bill Cosby’s point about not being able to “switch” was at issue here. I deal with black people on substantial business transactions (typically leasing) all the time. Older black people (even poor ones) can switch. Younger middle class and upper middle class black students can, and do, easily switch between informal black English, and (often exceptional) standard English. Poor black kids, and young adults cannot, in my experience, carry this off.
[/QUOTE]

Being able to switch is key. I do it all the time. At work, I have no Southern accent and never use profanity. At home…let’s just say you can tell I’m a Carolina girl. I think that schools ought to teach students of all races and background how to teach “standard” English. Not because it’s inherently better, but because it’s a useful skill to have when you need it. If teachers said, “I know this is not how you talk with your family and friends, and that’s fine. But this [standard English] is like a secret code that can help you get some things you might want–a job, a scholarship interview, a loan, etc.”

48

[QUOTE=Indistinguishable]
It’s ridiculous the bombastic levels of damage to one’s life and opportunities which people consider in store for native speakers of AAVE. I never see such exaggeration trotted out regarding, say, the prospects for Scottish speakers in the U.S (or, for that matter, England or Australia or anywhere outside of Scotland). People, on the whole, ought to be pretty used to the fact that not everyone speaks exactly the same way; it’s not usually some terrible, cogs-of-society-jamming problem to have to interact with others across such shifts of native dialect.
[/QUOTE]

In an ideal world, this would be the case. But these kids do live in a world where “standard” English is the norm. Rather than waiting for society to change, it’s going to do more good for these particular kids to learn that skill. If I moved to Bolivia, I could still speak English at home, with my friends, and in social situations. But if I wanted to get ahead in society, I would have to learn Bolivian Spanish. In many ways, these students are in the same boat.

49

[QUOTE=astro]
I haven’t seen this. Possibly Bill Cosby’s point about not being able to “switch” was at issue here. I deal with black people on substantial business transactions (typically leasing) all the time. Older black people (even poor ones) can switch. Younger middle class and upper middle class black students can, and do, easily switch between informal black English, and (often exceptional) standard English. Poor black kids, and young adults cannot, in my experience, carry this off.
[/QUOTE]

I hate to just add a ‘me, too’, but this has been my experience working in Baltimore. Maybe, astro, it’s a Maryland thing?

50

I have a beer drinking buddy who always speaks to me with a thick Spanish accent. My head almost exploded when he excused himself one time to answer a business call on his cell phone; he went from “whassup, main!” to “How are you kind sir?”

The same is true for me. When I’m hanging out with family members, especially if I’ve been drinking, my “Texas Twang” tends to come out a bit. I would never dream about talking that way at work.

This is mostly due to my mother, she hates the “Texas Twang” with a vengeance so we were discouraged from using it around her.

I think it all boils down to: “When in Rome…”

51

[QUOTE=Zsofia]
Bill Cosby used to talk about how young black people have forgotten “code-switching”, which is how most people (not just urban African American) people act in society - I talk one way to my friends and another to my boss. The problem isn’t when you use nonstandard English at the corner with your buddies; it’s when you can’t use anything else in a job interview. I do see a lot of young urban (not just black) teenagers who seem incapable of code switching. (I am a librarian who you’re asking for help. Last time I looked, my name was not “Shorty”. And stop mumbling!)
[/QUOTE]

I get this all the time at my library job, and sometimes I have to ask people to repeat what they say simply because they either mumbled it at a low volume or are asking about something specific in a manner that’s “coded” to obscure what they’re looking for. However, I do tend to ask for a lot of clarification when helping people find information so that I can narrow down possible answers to the “correct” one. I don’t expect a customer to speak to me as if I’m their grandmother/boss, but I do expect to be able to be spoken to in a manner that reflects the relative formality of speaking between strangers. (This is part of why I dislike people using “pet names” with me when we’re strangers; it’s rude and often is a big presumptuous/patronizing. My name isn’t “Sweetie,” “Honey,” “Doll,” or “Shorty.” “Ma’am”/“Miss” is perfectly acceptable, though.)

AAVE and other “colloquial” dialects of English are fine to use among friends and relatives with whom you have a casual relationship. It is not, however, supposed to be the standard dialect that you use in more formal situations. I have, however, seen that there are a lot of people of various ages (mostly my age and younger, though) who are either unable to use more formal language with strangers, read and interpret visual cues (which side of the desk am I supposed to be on?), and follow what I’d consider to be social norms during a customer-librarian transaction. I don’t need someone to carry on a long conversation with me, but I’d appreciate it if they’d stay on their side of the desk, not throw their card at me, and acknowledge my existence by responding when I ask them questions. It isn’t always about use of language, but about general behavior and knowing the social rules that will help a person achieve their goals.

liberty3701: a lot of language learning theory about AAVE and “Standard English” derives from language learning theory related to people who are learning English (in any form) as a foreign language. It is easier for people who are literate in their native dialect to learn to read and speak another dialect, and this matches well with studies done on AAVE speaking students; when first given a grammar book that details AAVE, then integrating a “standard English” grammar book into the curriculum, the kids learn to read and write “standard English” with greater speed and clarity than the AAVE speakers who were not given the AAVE grammar books.* It’s important for people to know how to code switch, and having standards that help them achieve understanding and facility with code switching in school are necessary when the students aren’t exposed to anyone who actually practices code switching behavior with them.

[sub]Stewart, William (1975), “Teaching Blacks to Read Against Their Will”, written at Regensburg, Germany, in Luelsdorff, P.A., Linguistic Perspectives on Black English., Hans Carl[/sub]

52

[QUOTE=Indistinguishable]
I never see such exaggeration trotted out regarding, say, the prospects for Scottish speakers in the U.S (or, for that matter, England or Australia or anywhere outside of Scotland).
[/QUOTE]
I assume you meant “people with Scottish accents.” Scottish speakers aren’t speaking a dialect of English like AAE speakers are; they’re speaking a different language. That language would either be Scots (a.k.a. Lallans) in the lowlands or Gàidhlig (a.k.a. Scots Gaelic) in the highlands. A speaker of Scots or Gàidhlig that didn’t speak English would not be able to function in the U.S.

[QUOTE=Jamaika a jamaikaiaké]
Oh, and InvisibleWombat? I don’t think you and I are using the word ‘objectively’ the same way. To me, the concerns you raise are relative to the society we live in and thus not objective. I’m sorry if I’ve created some misunderstanding.
[/QUOTE]
I was using the word “objective” to mean that the statement doesn’t change its meaning or validity based on individual interpretation. The job of a language teacher is to prepare students to communicate with the majority of people who speak that language (subject to geographical vagaries, of course: an English teacher in England won’t pronounce words the same way as an English teacher in the U.S.). If the teacher allows students to graduate that are incapable of speaking standard English, then any objective evaluation of that teacher would say she’s doing her job wrong.

53

I meant speakers of Scottish English, though, of course, there was nothing really Scottish-specific about the analogy I was drawing. (I just picked Scotland from the post I had replied to mentioning Chicago and Aberdeen)

54

[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat]

I was using the word “objective” to mean that the statement doesn’t change its meaning or validity based on individual interpretation. The job of a language teacher is to prepare students to communicate with the majority of people who speak that language (subject to geographical vagaries, of course: an English teacher in England won’t pronounce words the same way as an English teacher in the U.S.). If the teacher allows students to graduate that are incapable of speaking standard English, then any objective evaluation of that teacher would say she’s doing her job wrong.
[/QUOTE]

I also was not critiquing some hypothetical teacher. I only said that that mode of speech was not objectively incorrect.

55

Scottish English - Scots - Lallans…now you’re getting into very vague territory as to dialect vs. language. I’ve seen lectures delivered in what could easily be described as Scots, in English universities. And the transcript, available immediately afterwards? Queen’s Own.

56

Scottish English has, indeed, borrowed heavily from Lallans Scots. This doesn’t mean that Lallans isn’t a language.

57

In linguist John McWhorter’s book, Word on the Street, he points out that Black English (as he calls it), while the furthest from Standard English of all the reasonably sized U.S. dialects, is actually quite close to Standard English. He points out that, in spite of the size of the U.S., our language is fairly homogeneous, at least when compared to other countries, some of which are much smaller than the U.S. He mentions the fact that in, say, Germany, although everyone is taught High German, they speak in their own regional dialect, some of which are so different from High German as to be incomprehensible to outsiders, including others Germans speaking different dialects. Ditto the many dialects in Italy, Great Britain, etc…

McWhorter makes this point to defeat the argument (put forth by the politically active, not by linguists) that to tolerate Black English leads to poor Standard English skills on the part of its speakers. McWhorter points out that in the aforementioned countries in which there are dialects considerably different from the Standard version of that country’s language, students have no difficulty learning the Standard version while simultaneously speaking the local dialect. So, he reasons, black kids here shouldn’t have any trouble either. He attributes poor Standard English skills amongst black kids to poor schools, a lack of respect by blacks for the benefits of an education , or both (btw, McWhorter is black).

Linguists aren’t wrist-slapping grammarians. They get it: languages evolve. Get over it. What was poor grammar once is now proper: “thou” used to mean “you” in the singular form. “You” was for groups. Using “you” to refer to a single person was for the more, uh, “low income” sort of person. Over time, though, it became accepted. Still using thou? Date much?

58

So, nashiitashii, I see you have some of my ignant chirren who go sneaking around to your side of the desk?

There are social norms that might be “distasteful” to some, but they help you get along in life. Speak up, don’t call the librarian “shorty”, and stay on your side of the damned desk and we both keep our side of the social contract.

59

[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat]
Scottish English has, indeed, borrowed heavily from Lallans Scots. This doesn’t mean that Lallans isn’t a language.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not saying that it isn’t.

60

[QUOTE=astro]
In 2008 how can a black teenager graduate from a public high school with at least 12 years of education under their belt, and barely be able to speak standard English?

[/QUOTE]

I am responding to your OP without reading the other posts, but taking a wild guess others might agree with me:

  1. Race has nothing to do with this.
  2. I teach at a college and cannot even begin to tell you how terrible students are when trying to write even a simple four sentence memo/email - regardless of their race.
  3. The stupid “No Child Left Behind” crap has made Americans the idiots of the world. My theory is that this is an evil plot by librarian Laura Bush to enable her idiot husband to look smarter than a fifth grader.