Suppose two roads cross, one with stop signs and the other without. This is in the US, where we drive on the right. The road without stops is busy. One car on the stop road comes to the intersection and stops, waiting to make a left turn. Then, another car on the stop road, traveling in the opposite direction, comes to the intersection and stops, waiting to go straight across. Now the busy traffic on the road without stops opens up, so the way is clear. Which one of the stopped cars should yield to the other?
There is a general rule that people turning left must yield to oncoming traffic that is not turning. There is also a general rule that people who arrive later to an intersection yield to people who arrived earlier. Which rule prevails? It’s no good just citing one of the two rules. I’ve hunted the web and found many places where both rules are stated, but they aren’t mutually exclusive and I haven’t found anyplace that states which rule overrides the other when both situations are happening.
So, in South Carolina, the rule is that the left turner should yield to the person across the way, and proceed after that person has passed through the intersection.
The trouble comes when there is more than one car waiting in a line across the uncontrolled street. I have always proceeded on the ground that, if I am stopped, and a car across from me is stopped, and that car proceeds through the intersection, then I get the next turn to go while the next car across from me rolls up and completes their stop. But some people will expect the left-turner to await ALL cars from across the way, which can leave you effectively unable to turn. The exit from my subdivision has this exact problem, especially in the morning when mothers are headed to drop their children off at school.
This has been my best guess. All way stops need some kind of tiebreaker, but other than that, the goal isn’t being fair or offering first come first served. On the other hand, since posting, I asked Mrs. Napier, who said it’s definitely who got there first.
It’s arguably not important what the rule is, if people don’t know it. My everyday strategy has been that people look at each other with uncertainty and somebody ventures out timidly. Not a good state of affairs…
I deal with that intersection every day! IT’s a bummer too, if you’re at the stop sign and need to turn left and there is a long line of cars opposite waiting to cross or turn left. Depending on time of day it can get hairy. I tend to take my turn as soon as I am able, and will often allow the oncoming traffic to clear through a few cars before I make my left. Especially if I see they have a long line waiting and I just arrived at the stop sign. Have nearly been hit a couple times by some folks traveling up the rh turn lane and blow past the hesitant drivers waiting to cross while I make my left turn. It blows. Thus when returning home I slow down and use my turn signal in advance of my turnoff to signal to drivers trying to cross so that they now they have time to cross any which way. It burns me up to wait on a driver to clear the intersection before I turn to then see him put on his turn signal at the last possible moment.
With you and opponent traffic both controlled by stop signs, surely (after giving the *first *non-turner priority) cars should alternate (when necessary due to left-turner(s)).
At least I thought that was the rule in California. Cite: My 50-year old memory … though it may just be a memory of what I thought the rule should be! :smack:
I really hate U.S.-style stop signs (which don’t exist in Europe), for just this kind of ambiguity. Even if the law is actually clear, it’s not intuitive, and you can bet that half the drivers don’t know it.
But there’s a much more dangerous problem with them. Both four-way and two-way stop junctions are common. And they use the exact same sign. When you come to a stop sign at a crossroads, you have no way to know from the primary stop sign whether traffic on the cross street has to stop! You have to peer at the cross street to try to see if you can see the back of a stop sign there; or rely on the absence of a supplementary sign telling you it’s a 4-way stop; or check for another supplementary sign (sometimes there, sometimes not) saying “cross traffic does not stop”.
Unnecessarily dangerous and completely non-intuitive to drivers from Europe who haven’t encountered them before.
Actually, the pattern at stop signs isn’t ‘first come, first go’ it’s that each lane gets one turn of traffic (i.e. one vehicle gets to go). The lane with the first person to arrive gets priority over the one with the later arriving vehicle. So, absent a dedicated left-turn lane (which has it’s own rules) when it’s you’re turn at a stop sign (and competing traffic on the uncontrolled road permits) that intersection is yours, regardless of travel direction.
The common occurrence of straight-through traffic moving through the intersection simultaneously is only permitted because neither vehicle interferes with the other’s right-of-way.
I’d suggest contacting the city/county/state (whomever owns that intersection) to request clarifying signage.
Not sure if this is still the case, but when I lived in Pennsylvania the rule was groups of 3 cars get to go. Since 2/3 of the cars don’t have to stop right at the stop sign, this is more efficient. I remember discussing the point with my roommate who was taking Driver Education at the time (I never took it and IIRC most of us didn’t at the time, maybe 1973 or so).
This is common in the UK. The traffic going straight has priority over the turning traffic (by custom and common sense rather than law IIRC). What generally happens is that the turning traffic proceeds to the middle of the junction, stops, and waits for the oncoming traffic going straight to clear and then completes the turn.
The reason that there is no confusion in the U.K. is because there is no such thing as a 4-way stop. All crossroad junctions in the U.K. give constant priority to traffic on one or other cross street - only one axis has “Give Way” or “Stop” signs. (Or there’s a roundabout or traffic lights.)
Extrapolating from this logic, nobody in the U.K. ever thinks in the “take turns based on who got there first” mentality. We always think in terms of right of way. And it’s a whole lot less confusing.
I’m pretty confident she’s definitely wrong if she’s talking about the first cars in line at the respective stop signs. This NOT being a four-way stop, the pertinent rule is that the left-turner yields to the first car going straight. THEN the left-turner goes before the second car (if there is one) on that (opposite) side.
No, if the faster road has no stop sign, the left-turner is part of that traffic flow, so he get priority over the cars with the stop signs. There is no ambiguity.
You edited out the part of my comment which already said this.
The point is, the basic stop sign is exactly the same. 4-way stops are distinguished by having a supplementary small sign at the bottom (usually it’s underneath rather than overlaid where I live, but it’s always pretty small). And 4-way stops are much more common.
If you come to a situation where it’s a 2-way stop - i.e. the situation where cross traffic is not stopping - you must infer this by the absence of that small supplementary sign underneath.
That is not a smart way to communicate the important piece of information that cars on the cross street may (unusually) be shooting past at 40mph rather than stopping too. I have seen several near misses caused by this confusion. And sometimes, prominent additional signs saying “cross traffic does not stop” are added – showing that the basic signage is fundamentally flawed.
