I’m surprised no one has brought up the signing communities in South America (Argentina, I want to say?) where language was pretty much spontaneously created, at first through a pidgin used by deaf students at a school for hearing impaired children, and that was later passed on to younger students who turned it into a full-fledged language. I tried a quick Google search and couldn’t come up with anything useful - I’ll have to look through my old linguistics notes in the morning and see if I can remember more. 
Wow, this has been a very interesting topic.
I had two questions when I read Cecil’s answer that I will throw out to you all…
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Why is there a community of signers on Martha’s Vineyard? I don’t get it. Was there a deaf person there long ago that taught their kids, and so on and so on…? Are they still there?
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What is it like for deaf/blind people? How do they “think”? How do they process sensory information and convey it? That just befuddles me. It is one thing to imagine (as a seeing/hearing person) how different it would be to not have one of those senses, but two? yikes! What does that do for ‘language’, ‘thinking’, and communication??
Sharel:eek:
Okay, I got the answer to this question…
Sharel
mherbold - it might interest you to know that twinspeak is now generally felt to be caused by language delays in one twin. The other twin will often imitate the other’s distorted speech, producing the illusion that they’ve come up with their own language. I see no reason that couldn’t happen with signed as well as spoken language. More information can be found here: http://toddlerstoday.com/resources/articles/twintalk.htm
The article addressed a very interesting question, but I was disappointed that is glossed over another, related question: HOW do deaf people think in sign language? Do they see the motions in front of them? Is it a kinesthetic experience - do they almost feel themselves forming the signs? Or is it something entirely different?
The assertion that language is necessary for complex thought rubbed me the wrong way. (However, I do agree that intellectual stimulation is a prerequisite of complex thought, and [barring telepathy] language is the best way of providing that stimulation.) I would estimate that at least two thirds of my conscious thoughts are non-verbal (that is to say, most of the thoughts I am aware of are not in words). They aren’t pictures, either, or smells, or anything like that. They’re just… ideas.
It’s hard to explain. You remember the scenario given above where you have to imagine an elephant without thinking of the word, or how they look, or sound, or anything? I can do that easily. That’s what comes naturally. This has never caused me any problems, except one: when I am very distraught, it becomes hard for me to translate my thoughts into words, so my speech becomes very disorganized.
Most other people I speak to about this find my way of thinking very hard to understand. Hearing one’s thoughts seems to be the most common way of thinking, but I also know a man who sees each one in front of him as if it were typed on a page, and as mentioned before some people think in pictures. I find this all fascinating.
Anyway, I’m sorry to have rambled on so long. It’s just a subject I’m interested in, I guess.
mherbold - it might interest you to know that twinspeak is now generally felt to be caused by language delays in one twin. The other twin will often imitate the other’s distorted speech, producing the illusion that they’ve come up with their own language. I see no reason that couldn’t happen with signed as well as spoken language. More information can be found here: http://toddlerstoday.com/resources/articles/twintalk.htm
The article addressed a very interesting question, but I was disappointed that is glossed over another, related question: HOW do deaf people think in sign language? Do they see the motions in front of them? Is it a kinesthetic experience - do they almost feel themselves forming the signs? Or is it something entirely different?
The assertion that language is necessary for complex thought rubbed me the wrong way. (However, I do agree that intellectual stimulation is a prerequisite of complex thought, and [barring telepathy] language is the best way of providing that stimulation.) I would estimate that at least two thirds of my conscious thoughts are non-verbal (that is to say, most of the thoughts I am aware of are not in words). They aren’t pictures, either, or smells, or anything like that. They’re just… ideas.
It’s hard to explain. You remember the scenario given above where you have to imagine an elephant without thinking of the word, or how they look, or sound, or anything? I can do that easily. That’s what comes naturally. This has never caused me any problems, except one: when I am very distraught, it becomes hard for me to translate my thoughts into words, so my speech becomes very disorganized.
Most other people I speak to about this find my way of thinking very hard to understand. Hearing one’s thoughts seems to be the most common way of thinking, but I also know a man who sees each one in front of him as if it were typed on a page, and as mentioned before some people think in pictures. I find this all fascinating.
Anyway, I’m sorry to have rambled on so long. It’s just a subject I’m interested in, I guess.
I was in Ecuador some years ago (1996), and ran into a community of Deaf people there. I met 7, all totalled - And we got along great. I don’t know Spanish, They don’t know English. But we still had a load of fun and could chat fairly fluently, with only some stopgaps in communication.
I am NOT saying they use ASL. Their sign is definitely entirely different. The A-B-Cs are (almost) the same, but other than a few common signs, that’s where the similarity ends. But we could still understand each other fine; each sign was a concept of its own, and was easy enough to grasp what was meant.
My father tried using SEE with them, but got nothing more than "huh?"s. ASL is by leaps and bounds a more natural language, as well as the ‘spontaneous’ languages in South America. It wasn’t entirely created by hearing people - if it was, I probably wouldn’t be able to make heads or tails of what they’re talking about. ;).
Hmm…
As a deaf person who uses more than one language and who teaches deaf children with all kinds of backgrounds in terms of language, I felt the need to respond.
IMHO, thought and language are interconnected in some way. I think in pictures part of the time, yet I maintain there is a connection. Language and thought are not necessarily equal and thought does not necessarily require language, but there is a very strong connection.
In my experience, deaf people think in whatever language they’re most comfortable with. Take me, for example. I’m fully bilingual in English and ASL. My thoughts are sometimes in one or the other language and sometimes a blend of both. I also use French, though not well, and if I’m in a French-speaking environment or if I’ve just been composing something in French, my thoughts are in French. My Spanish is dismal, but from time to time, I think in Spanish. But my thoughts are primarily in ASL and/or English, simply because those are my two strongest languages.
I’ve had many discussions with different people over the years about what language we think in, what language we dream in, and so forth. Both hearing and deaf people think and dream in the language(s) they are most comfortable with most of the time.
I was also impressed with Cecil’s treatment of the topic, but he failed to make the above point. Otherwise he did a very good job. Thanks, Unca Cece!
Yet more good posts from newbies. Welcome deafycat and graytabby and DeafWalker and …
Of course, now I feel like opening up a Great Debate on the nature of thought.
An old joke at the deaf school was don’t sign with your mouth full. One of the kids was signing and making the typical facial expressions and lost his whole mouth of food. It was very funny!
Wakker!
(A vocal accompaniment to a certain sign that doesn’t translate well - Some signs have sounds associated with them at times - i.e an ASLer might make a “tu-tu-tu-tu” sound when signing “True”. Not that anyone hears it, but the expression around the mouth is what provides the emphasis)
“Deafwalker”, I gotta ask – are you a Babylon 5 fan?
I like the show, but not to an extent that I go out of my way to buy and watch it. As a result, I’ve only seen a few eps.
OK. I thought your handle might be an allusion to one of the more memorable episodes of the 1st season.