In which Danielinthewolvesden defends his racist GD statement...

i really do want to leave this thread to ddg and ditwd. i really do. and i appreciate the wealth of info, collounsbury and eponymous. i will take some time today to read through it.

if the evidence is among all the links and cites provided, i’m sure i will find it eventually. in the meantime, let me clarify my ignorance and when you respond, i humbly request that you quote my question and then immediately follow it with a concise layman’s answer. here goes:

in the past few days, every person i have seen possessing an ‘epithantic eye fold’ in my little section of the globe has had straight black hair. i’ll assume that your cites prove beyond argument that this is not a result of common genes. is there another scientific explanation for this or is it just a coincidence?

i would post this in a new thread in gq, but i’m afraid the first response i would get is ‘genetics, stupid’.

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Well, guess what–I can’t find this “original statement” anywhere. The closest I can come would be either one of these two, from back on Page 1:

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Yes, indeedy, I surely did.

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No, I wasn’t.

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Did you seriously expect that the only reply you would get would be a simple, “No”?

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No, I see now that by your own admission, you were asking a loaded question, where you obviously didn’t expect a simple “no”. You misjudged your audience badly. You thought we would all echo your racist sentiments and say, “Well, sure, everybody knows blacks are taller and faster than anybody else”. And then you could ask another loaded question, saying slyly, “Well, if you can say blacks are faster, then why can’t somebody else say they’re smarter?” and thus pick a brisk fight with someone on the “Race and Intelligence” issue.

Daniel–dear–(pause) another way of saying, “asking a loaded question” might be to say “trolling”. However, since I know you are not a troll, I won’t mention that. :wink:

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Yes, it’s also a commonly held belief that each person must eat nine spiders in his lifetime, not to mention the fact that Mountain Dew will cause your testicles to shrink. And you can die in a room with an electric fan, if you leave the fan running while you’re asleep…

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Boy, howdy, Daniel my lad, you have NO IDEA how BADLY I would like to see you come up with a cite for this. Please please please pretty please…? Make my day?

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[belatedly realizing his gaffe, he hastens to cover himself]

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  1. It is scientifically, statistically, INCORRECT, that is, WRONG, to say “On the average, blacks are taller than orientals”. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Unless, of course, you have some kind of cite for that, which I might point out, I have already asked you for, back on page 1.

  2. I repeat, why would anyone think that being shorter and slower would be an advantage? Of course everyone thinks being taller and faster is better, because it is better, in an evolutionary sense. We haven’t been so long out of the trees that we don’t remember how important it is to be able to outrun a pack of hyenas, or to be able to grab that tree branch and hoist yourself up in a hurry. As a culture we still value physical strength, speed, stamina. So yes, anybody saying that a certain race tends to be taller and faster than other races is also expressing his approval of those races solely for the reason of their height and speed. He isn’t saying, “Yes, and they’re smarter, too, and better money managers.” He isn’t saying, “They’re God’s children and I respect them no matter how tall or fast they are.” He’s expressing the sentiment, “That race of people is taller and faster than other races and I approve of them for it.”

However, as I just said, it’s totally pointless to say, “That race of people is taller and faster than other races,” because it isn’t true. And because it is not a scientific fact, it is therefore an opinion. An opinion, by definition, is not neutral. You either have a good opinion of something, or you have a bad opinion of something. Here’s your Oxford definition-* “Racism”:" A belief in the superiority of a particular race; predjudice based on this".* When you say, “Blacks are taller and faster than other races,” you are expressing the opinion of 80,000 years of human culture, during which time being taller and faster was a Good Thing.

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Excellent! Another gold star! :smiley:

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Yes, that’s a good point. Who’s to say that in ten years or so they might not come up with some kind of genetic test for race? But all we can debate is what we know right now.

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I hate to make it sound like I’m compulsively disagreeing with you on everything you say, but–no, they can’t. Nothing that will stand up in court, because, remember, this may all be part of the chain of evidence in a murder investigation. A coroner who is presented with a set of skeletal remains, like those that they’ve just dug up out in Texas that are probably the remains of Madlyn Murray O’Hair, will never put in his official report, “This femur is from Ms. O’Hair because it looks Caucasian and female.” He will say, “We know how tall she was, and I’ve measured this femur, and it’s commensurate with being one of Ms. O’Hair’s femurs, and this guy told us where to dig, and it hasn’t been in the ground long enough to be somebody else’s remains, so there’s a good chance that it’s hers.”

Pathologists sometimes have to get up on the witness stand and swear to their findings under oath, you know.

Anyone who want some evidence that race is an incoherent concept just has to watch some reruns of “The Cosby Show”. Here we have the youngest daughter who seems to have 100% african ancestry, and Lisa Bonet who, if she hadn’t identified herself as “black” I would have assumed to have 100% european ancestry.

“Race” is a very strange concept, especially as it is applied in the US. If you call yourself black, you’re black. And the reasons it matters whether you think of yourself as black or white are very strange indeed.

Back to Zwalld’s question: “Why is it that everyone I see that has an epicanthic fold also has straight black hair?”

OK, this is actually pretty simple. It just so happens that most people in the US that have epicanthic folds came here from China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, and the Phillipines. And it just so happens that most of the people in those countries have both characteristics.

There are asian populations that have epicanthic folds but curly hair. However there only a few, and most of them are still at home.

Another way to think of this is to imagine a set of maps of the world. We could look at every single human gene, and put a dot on the map for every person who possesed a given gene. So, we could look at the genetic distribution of the epicanthic fold across the world. Well, we’d find China, Japan, etc solid black. We’d find greyish pockets in america where immigrants live. And we’d find the density getting lower and lower the further west we go across Eurasia. Eventually we’d reach an area where the black dots are almost non-existant.

Then, we could map genes for black hair. And we’d find black dots across the entire world, except for some grey areas in northern Europe and north america. And pretty much all of asia would have black hair.

Then we could map the genes for curly hair. I seem to remember that there are a couple of different genes that can cause curly hair…anyway, it all comes down to the cross-section. Round hair=straight. Oval=wavy. Flat=curly. Anyway, we’d find that the genes that produce curliness are pretty much absent in the places where asian immigrants come from. Africa would be colored in, europe would be grayish, most of asia would be white, but with small pockets of dots in new guinea, melanesia, etc.

Then we could look at a map of sickle-cell trait, or ABO blood type frequencies, or MN blood proteins, or Rh factor, or hemophilia, or achondroplasia, or cystic fibrosis, or what have you.

The general idea is that while some of these maps would look similar to each other, most would not. The map for black hair is very different than the map for curly hair, and both are very different from the map for epicanthic folds, or for skin color, or for sickle-cell trait, or anything.

So, where does that leave the concept of race? Pretty much no where. If race were a meaningful concept, we’d find lots and lots of maps that matched. But we don’t, most gene frequencies vary independently.

So, suppose we find a gene that correlates with increased intelligence…suppose some people have a protein in their neurons that does such-and-such. If we mapped the distribution of that protein, would it be likely to look anything like the map for dark skin? Or curly hair? Or sickle-cell trait? Probably not, since these maps look nothing like each other.

But it is possible that the trait is more common in one part of the world than another. So, using a layperson’s racial classification, we could say that such-and-such a race would be smarter becuase the frequency of the allele is greater in such-and-such a race. But would this be meaningful? Not really, since the trait has nothing to do with skin color or or any of the other traits we’re talking about that we as lay people use to define race. The trait for “intelligence” probably wouldn’t have any correlation with race, except at random.

Does this help explain why scientists have discarded the concept of race?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zwaldd *
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**zwaldd, where do you live? Here in New York we have tons of people with an epithantic eye fold and curly hair.

Yes, genes cause such traits as eye-folds and curly hair. There is no reason why any human cannot have both these genes if their parents also possess these genes. They are not mutually exclusive.

I think you may be dismissing the people you see with this feature who do not have curly hair because, well, these people are obviously not from Asia.

lemur866, you quoted my question as “Why is it that everyone I see that has an epicanthic fold also has straight black hair?” when the meat of my question was really “is there another scientific explanation for this or is it just a coincidence?”

your answer was “It just so happens that most people in the US that have epicanthic folds came here from China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, and the Phillipines. And it just so happens that most of the people in those countries have both characteristics.”

so…i’m going to extrapolate that your answer to my question is 'no, there is no scientific explanation for the recurring correlation of epicanthic eye folds and straight black hair - the correlating visible traits you see reflect no genetic thread shared by, and specific to, those groups. the fact that those groups share those correlating traits are nothing but a coincidence. therefore, there is no way to connect them for the purpose of predicting further physical correlations.

collounsbury - tell me the above statement is backed up by a conclusive scientific study contained in one of your cites (no, i’m not asking you to re-post the cite - i’ll find it myself), and i thank you in advance and i’m done here.

I am sure that the group of people who share the common features of an epicanthic fold and straight black hair (as well as a common geographic region of origin) do own their physical similarities to genetic makeup.

The point, when trying to establish races, is that the groups of people who have straight black hair and who have epicanthic folds (delivered to them genetically) are simply a union set of two different groups, one of which has epicanthic folds with or without straight black hair and one of which has straight black hair with or without epicanthic folds. (We tend to associate the two because our largest groups of Asian immigrants came from the Han speaking ethnic region.) In addition, within this geographically predictable location for finding straight black hair and epicanthic folds, there will be a wealth of other features that are shared among some groups and absent in other groups. By the time we have categorized the populations who have mutually exclusive features, we have reduced each of those populations to meaninglessly small numbers–and throughout, we find that the overall genetic makeup is thoroughly intermixed.

To quote again from the citation eponymous provided from L. Cavalli-Sforza

Your “recurring correlation” is a matter of selection bias. I think Eponymous has adequately suggested to you that the correlation you are seeing is largely due to what folks you have been exposed to. Greater exposure to different populations might disabuse you of the notion.

As I already noted, you can find Central Asian and South East Asian populations, and yes, even some African populations with epithantic folds, and without straight black hair. (And one can find straight black hair w/o the folds) That the Han Chinese have been making babies like mad in the past 60 years and now provide you with most examples of Asians does not render the correlation any stronger.

Regarding the relationship, it may be accidental, it may, as I have noted already, be due to common selection factors (such as a relationship between having darker skin and having some kind of malarial protective traits.) which do not imply, of necessity, commonality in underlying genetic heritage – beyond the general human commonality.

DDG- you are invited to peruse my thread, right here in the PIT- it is entitled “Too many assholes, not enuf time…”.

Thanks, Daniel, but one question–if I check into the thread, am I not then identifying myself as one of the assholes? :wink:

Oh come on now, at least you’re not named by name, like, well…me.

Suppose that we divide all of humanity into three groups, according to whether there are more hair follicles on their right or left arm, between the elbow and wrist. Those with more on the left we call Sinesteroid, those on the right, Dexteroid, and those that cannot be so categorized (without hair, equal numbers, no arms, and all other cases) as Nulloids.

Now we measure how many children’s building blocks each member can stack in the palm of his hand, and multiply that by the total number of symbols needed to represent the name and address of the person’s grandparents. We call this number their “Human worth indicator.”

Is it possible that Sinesteroids have, on the average a lower Human worth value?

When your criteria are entirely arbitrary, the significance of your findings rests upon the significance of those criteria. Race is entirely a cultural perception of individuals, by individuals. Intelligence is an ill defined, and inconsistently evaluated characteristic. Is it possible that statistical variations can be found using race and intelligence as criteria? Of course. And it is as useful a thing to do, (or to deny) as it is to say that Sinesteroids have lower Human worth value than Dexteroids.

Statistical manipulation doesn’t alter the importance of any observation, it simply arranges it in boxes. A box of crap is still crap, no matter how bright and shiny the box is.

Tris

No, of course not, don’t be silly!

But, is it not true that Dexteroids are better at working with their hands, and Sinesteroids are more devious, and Nulloids are more self-effacing than other races?

Tris, I work in Market Research… we project statistics all the time. Can I please, please, please have you permission to print this line out and frame it on my office wall? :slight_smile:

Ditto!

Please feel free!

(There is a subtle irony here, I am just sure of it! I can’t quite get a handle on it, but I know it’s there.)

Tris

::smacks head::

Damn!

It’s ** Marketing! ** Sheesh. I should have asked them to give me money! I just don’t have the instincts for this.

Tris