You’ve summed it up perfectly. For me, at least. I don’t like the “nice guy” label, and I’ve never attempted to give it to myself. Others have. “you’re a nice guy Blalron, but…” 
See, I think that when women say they like confident men, they mean “confident in their social interactions with strangers” not “believes deep down that they are smart and worthwhile”. Approaching someone, initiating conversation and possibly asking them on a date are all things that can be done calmly and with self-assurance, as opposed to nervously or not at all.
Your posts seem to contain some anger or resentment, despite your assertions that you’re happy playing the game your own way. Women as a group aren’t dating people you think are jerks because they are shallow or stupid. Fact is, sometimes jerks are better salespeople than people who are more reserved.
Nope, I think it’s fucking obnoxious. I used to do it too, when I was a teenager. Then I wised up.
Then again, I hate most films billed as “romantic comedies,” couldn’t figure out why people thought I’d like “When Harry Met Sally,” and so on, so maybe I don’t fit into this “ladies/women say X but do Y” generalization anyway.
That’s OK, I’ve been happily married over seven years now, so I essentially don’t have a dog in this fight. My husband, when he first met me, hit on me almost immediately. He backed off when he found out I was seeing another guy at the time, and we became good friends, but he managed to still convey the impression that he found me very attractive and appealing, without being obnoxious about it. Eventually I dumped the other guy (due to ongoing relationship issues), and hooked up with this friend about immediately. Rebound relationships work out sometimes!
Sick of nice guys, girlie men, and Alan Alda wannabees? Looking for something a little more manly? Here you go:
I agree completely with this. If a guy practically acts like I’m going to hit him (or go call all my female friends afterwards and laugh about him) when we’re talking, I would immediately start thinking stuff like “this guy must never have been on a date before - what’s wrong with him that this is the case?”
Plus, some people just “realize” faster that some guys are jerks. A friend of mine has a brother-in-law who is way, way up on the self-absorbed jerk scale, but most of her family just adores him. He’s really good at sucking up if you can help him somehow, so he snowjobbed most of his inlaws, but if you don’t matter (more distant friends, that kind of thing), the facade slips and he makes less of an effort to conceal how self-centered he is. When he was at a shower, the effort to “compete” with some of the male friends there who’d known each other for a while and talked easily really brought this out, to the point where he was difficult to be around. He had to one-up everything, laugh louder, and generally was a real pain.
In the same way, guys will complain about how a woman can be interested in some guy because it’s “obvious” he’s a jerk - well, why would he care about hiding his jerkdom around other men? It’s women that he’ll act all smooth for, that he’ll really “sell” his worth to, at least long enough for him to perceive that she’s really hooked and not as likely to drop him like a hot potato.
Guys who are jerks will make an effort to hide that when the “chase” is on, or when the relationship is in a more fragile initial state. Once it starts settling down, then the jerk feels like he can be more himself, and oftentimes the woman will think she deserves to be treated poorly, or perhaps just blame it on stress/work/whatever and try to work to make him feel comfortable and pampered, in an effort to get that “original” guy back, when the truth is that he didn’t exist at all.
Meh, I haven’t had good luck with rebound relationships. Its too easy for it all to wind up being a sham just to make the woman’s ex-boyfriend jealous so he’ll get back with her and she can go back to griping about how much she hates him 
Persistence and enduring rejection are really important- you never know if someone might have a change of heart and warm up to you later on. That isn’t to say to hold out until it happens, but don’t abandon friendships just because they didn’t evolve into relationships.
Contrary to what some people might think, I believe men befriending women is an excellent way for them to meet women. Even if the female friend just wants to be friends, there’s always her sister, cousin, girlfriends, roomate, stepmother, etc 
Oh, and one thing I wish to add (yeah, I know, as if my above posts weren’t long enough): I find this societal taboo against publically admitting one’s weaknesses to be a big huge steaming crock of shit. If more of us were willing to admit that we – gasp of shock – have flaws, and actually own up to what they are, the world would be a far better place.
What do you think inspires personal insecurity? Do you think it’s inherent to the human condition? I’ll tell you what lends a big hand: the fact that everybody you meet on a day-to-day basis makes him or herself out to be a perfect being. Everybody seems so confident, so self-assured, so outgoing and flawless in the way they act…everybody has their own routine down. It fosters the subconscious impression that these people cannot have the same feelings of self-doubt that you do, because they never, ever, ever display them. The most evident conclusion, then, is that there must be something wrong with you. So, you learn to hide it; you teach yourself to put out the same public face as everyone else, and you (or rather, the “you” that you present) gradually grows acceptance from the herd. Meanwhile, the real you – the human one, with flaws and doubts and worries – withdraws deeper and deeper into this shell of faux-confidence you work so hard to project. Eventually, over time, you can forget it’s even there.
Displays of confidence and appearances of self-assurance do have their place. In the business world, for example, it is certainly beneficial for a person negotiating a deal to display nothing but the utmost surity of his own position. The problem is that we then translate this into the default persona for our day-to-day affairs. For the love of Og, WHY?! Why is it so fucking important to everybody that everybody else think they’re perfect all the time? Why can’t we all just come to terms with the fact that not only do we ourselves have flaws, but so does every single person on Earth, ALWAYS, as much as we wish sometimes that it weren’t so? What really is gained by keeping up this masquerade of total self-assuredness? Two things: a false sense of security in the stability of the status quo as regards social interaction (which does make it easier to interact with people…it’s just that you’re not interacting with “people” per se), and a society that encourages insecurity and paranoia by making pariahs out of those who dare to publically acknowedge that we are all human fucking beings. Sweet.
I do not outwardly display my own self-doubt, anymore than I display my own self-confidence. If one of my personal weaknesses is relevant to the topic at hand, though, I will reveal it with no qualms. I find it both saddening and revealing how often – how very, very often – this sort of revelation causes the person with whom I’m conversing to visibly balk. People are just not used to people admitting that they have flaws. It seems that most people are okay with this, and adapt themselves to fit the situation. Personally, I see it as a gigantic flaming problem with our system of thought as a whole, and I absolutely refuse to engage in it.
I have flaws. I have doubts. So do you. I refuse to pretend that I don’t. You can, if you want to…I know better. If you’d admit your flaws and doubts to me, I would accept them, and they would become nothing more than another aspect of what I know about you. I wouldn’t reject you for them – that would be idiotic. If anything, I would respect you more for having told me, given how very rare that ability seems to be. But no…that can’t be done. It is so very much easier to pretend that these people around us are really as sure of themselves as they work so hard to seem, because it makes social interaction that much less complex. Besides, if we told people our flaws, then people would know it, and then they might not think we’re perfect. That would be scary. Maybe even embarrassing. But you know waybe…just maybe…in the end, that would be all right, because it’s true for everybody. As much as it makes life easier to deny that most of the time, it just makes it that much harder to face when we’re smacked upside the head with the reality of it. People really do forget the truth about themselves, and in doing so, they forget that others have inner truths as well.
Sorry if the above was a bit rambling. This topic touched on a core belief of mine, and I wanted to get it out there. This sort of thing really does bug the shit out of me, given how pervasive it is in every aspect of our lives. I hate it. I hate the way I can feel it in the air around me. I hate the way I can see such blatant falsehood in everyone I meet – even if it “doesn’t do anybody any harm” – and that that is supposed to be the accepted way of life. And what bothers me so much is that everybody – even those with the presence of mind to acknowledge it in the first place – seems to be okay with this.
On preview: Giraffe, the resentment contained in my posts is not based upon the effect this sort of thing has on my love life. It’s based on the fact that this sort of thing is allowed to exist at all. I accepted long ago (well, long ago for me, I suppose) that in refusing to compromise my sense of right and wrong to go along with societal convention, I was essentially sacrificing any hope of popularity. If I seem pissed…that’s because I am. But I’m not pissed because I can’t get dates. I’m not pissed because I wasn’t the most popular guy in high school. I’m not pissed because people don’t always accept me. I’m pissed because I see a humongous pink elephant in the room, and not only am I not supposed to acknowledge it, I’m supposed to silently be okay with the fact that it’s there. Well, I’m not. Making negative judgements about people based upon the fact that they admit to self-doubt is wrong. It’s WRONG, I refuse to do it, I refuse to take part in it, and I refuse to accomodate its existence. That, my friend, is the resentment you detect.
Oh, and please, remember that none of this is anything against you, or any other individual. It’s against a philosophical construct; nothing more, nothing less. I hate it. I don’t hate you. I don’t hate anybody.
All right…I guess I’m done.
That doesn’t bother me at all. As a matter of fact, my self-confidence only got stronger when I got married (18 years now) and I’m not pressuring myself to impress the other sex into forming a relationship with me. But, if you have a sense of humor, then my disparaging remarks towards myself is a way to find more friends/acquaintances with a sense of humor…I think your dad realized this also.
If I knew this before I was married, I would have had a hell of a lot more dates back then. Eh, whatever.
I honestly kind of like guys who will own up to their own insecurity. I just don’t want their insecurity used as leverage against me. A guy who channels his small insecurities through humor and wit will get ALOT further with most women than a guy who is completely full of himself.
The exception to the “be funny, look self-assured” line, of course, is beauty. A gorgeous guy isn’t going to get the full personality profiling that women usually like to work up because face it, women WANT to believe that he’s perfect. And we REALLY want to believe that he’s perfect if he expresses the slightest interest in us. Good genes, you know.
And you can slide your chapped hide off of that high horse because you boys are no better.
A woman with a body and face that you find highly desireable can get away with alot more in the way of personality flaws than her +50lb counterpart with a touch of acne and a weird laugh. Thems the breaks, kid. And as a +coughlbs counterpart with imperfect skin and a goofy laugh, I don’t like this particular break anymore than you do. :smack:
The good news is that “attractive” is a sliding scale and it’s unique to each person, so just because you may not be attractive to Maggie the Beermaid doesn’t mean that Brie the Bookstore Clerk isn’t completely charmed by your startling blue eyes and crooked smile.
If you really want girls to like you, be clean, smell good, smile, and make them laugh. “Nice” is never truly a factor.
So you’re off to a good start…
So, not being the blatantly confident assertive type, he nevertheless establishes that he values his time and doesn’t automatically assume it should revolve around the relationship as the focal point of his life. Points to Trevor for doing so. Do you have problems with this stance? Would you have the same stance?
Mmm kay. Trevvy sounds kinda boring to you and not terribly interested in you either, at least that’s my impression.
And had you called him in the mean time? What’s your point?
He seems like a decent sort, bit quirky, kindred spirit for all that. I don’t think y’all sparked each other much. But why pit him for that?
This thread somehow reminds of the pop music TV showcase parody in Bedazzled (the original movie with Peter Cook, Dudley Moore and Raquel Welch as Lust).
Moore is living out one of his wishes as a star crooner, thrilling a bevy of squealing female fans with his rendition of Love Me - a desperate plea for affection with lyrics entirely consisting of the words “Love Me!!! Love Me!!!”
Moore’s moment in the spotlight ends when Peter Cook (playing the part of a rival singer), begins his own performance as a totally jaded and indifferent ladies’ man (“Just go away. Don’t you ever leave off?”). It takes about 30 seconds for all of Moore’s fans to desert him and start hysterically worshipping Cook.
Not appearing too needy - in fact sometimes not appearing to give a damn - can be effective.
Of course, having tons of money and being devastatingly handsome helps too.
I’m a little late to this party, so apologies in advance for this long-ass post…
I don’t know what kind of biology classes you had, but getting a girl in the end is no way for a guy to get his genes passed on.
Watch the generalizations, young Jedi. :dubious: They are rarely accurate, and often unfair. (And no, adding “IME” doesn’t keep it from being a generalization.)
Penis size does so matter!
While I agree that true self-confidence – in either sex – is often quiet, it does not follow that most quiet guys are confident. If someone is giving off spineless loser vibes but is really just supremely self-confident, I think it’s safe to say that he can kick up the “exhibiting confidence” a notch or two.
FWIW, in my online dating days, when describing the kind of guy I was looking for I would often say “self-confident, but knows the difference between confidence and arrogance.” It can be a fine line, but it’s a critical one.
My friends and I use a bastardization of the two terms: a man like you describe is a “good guy.” As in “John? He’s a really good guy, we just didn’t click.”
I’m pretty stingy about giving out the “good man” label (he has to fit the definition of “man” that goes beyond sex), but I like using it when someone deserves it.
Well said.
What keeps your analogy from working for me is that sign language was taught in every class, every day for the first 12-14 years of school. I empathize with the people who don’t know how to make a transaction (my brother is an extreme example), but I don’t feel that it’s my responsibility to help them close the deal. (Or something like that.)
Another line in my online ad said “Don’t tell me that you don’t care where we go to dinner if you really do.”
Which is exactly why I prefer to be friends with someone first. And group settings are good, because you can see how he acts with various types of people (and group dinners out are the best, for the waitstaff test! ;)).
So true, so true. And, as you said, true for both sexes.
First, I just want to say that Roland Orzabal is my hero.
passengerpigeon also made a really good point that sums up the way I feel all too often. There seem to be so many points being made about “rushing in to fast and coming off creepy” or “taking too long and seeming spineless.” Well none of us were given manuals. Granted, sometimes I get the feeling that everyone else was and I somehow didn’t get the memo about the orientation where they were handed out.
When exactly is the right time to start getting affectionate with someone? When is the right time to open up to them? People always try to say how “oh, love isn’t perfect, you can’t time it, blah blah blah blah blah,” and now you all seem to be giving the impression that everything needs to be on a set timetable. It’s all very confusing to someone who has no idea what they hell they are doing to begin with.
I know I come off very whiny in all the numerous sex threads I’ve made. But I’m not like that in public. The thoughts I put here online are the things that I think about in my head. In public, I’m perfectly capable of conversing with people, utilizing my sense of humor and generally being a pretty mellow and confident guy, though I am still shy and still learning to initiate conversation. But it’s in private, afterwards, that I have self doubts, or start worrying about hypothetical situations. I ask all of these things here because there is a great deal of anonymity on a postboard, so I can get much better input than I could by just thinking about it in my own head. The things I’ve asked about here are things I have never discussed with people outside of the internet.
But it brings up another problem. If it’s such a problem for guys to be “spineless and flawed” does that mean I can never really open up to a girl I start a relationship with? I have a lot of issues when it comes to sex, but am I just supposed to bury them deep down, not discuss them with her at all, and then just complete make a trainwreck of my first time, both physically and emotionally? When is the “right time” to actually open up to someone you are dating?
I’ve tried explaining the concept expressed in the OP to some of my younger “nice guy” friends, but they usually refuse to get it.
“Look,” I tell them. “It’s not that women prefer assholes, it’s that they don’t like whiny, loser guys who present themselves as needy and desperate.”
And really, who can blame them?
Most of these “nice guys” suffer from some other delusions as well. For instance, they complain about “superficial” women who only date nice-looking guys, and refuse to see them for their inner beauty. Yet why are they attracted to these particular women? Because of their beauty.
You can be a regular old imperfect human without being “spineless and flawed.” Once you start getting closer physically - some kissing, touching, with promise of more to come - start talking about what that means to you. Practically no one was totally comfortable the first time they had sex.
[quote=Susan]
A few days later, we go out for coffee. Trevor starts out by telling me that he’s missing his chess club to be with me, but that’s okay, since “I’d rather be with you than go to any of my clubs.” ooooookay.
It’s hard to do nuanced and contextual in text, and could have described this better.
I appreciate that he values his time, and if he had said this in an offhand manner, I would have found it charming. Instead, he pulled my hand between both of his, leaned toward me over the table, and stammered out this line like a marriage proposal. That was what made it seem creepy.
That’s just it. When we talked on our first date, he was knowledgable, logical (highest praise from me), and very interesting.
I hadn’t called him, but I had sat by him and talked with him in class between the first and second dates. I certainly wasn’t ignoring him or doing anything to suggest that I never wanted to hear from him again.
Well, what I told you on the other thread was to ask her. If that isn’t an option, remember that “getting affectionate” and “opening up” aren’t all-or-nothing actions. You can take small steps, baby steps, or even backward steps if it is too soon. And you will know it is too soon because you feel uncomfortable and she feels uncomfortable.
No one is asking you to keep your feeling hidden from your lover- I’d say that by the time you know somebody well enough to sleep with them, it’s okay to tell them about your fear of cheese (or whatever).
Just don’t blurt it all out on the first date. Get her hooked with your winning personality and kisses like little lines of cocaine, and she’s more likely to be accepting of your quirks and tics.
That’s too perfect. As an exercise for the students, it could be made into a pickup line.
I think another aspect is that women like projects. Fixer-uppers, if you will. He’s cute, funny, and smart, but he smokes too much weed and can sometimes be an asshole. But she can fix that. The shortcomings of a Nice Guy cut too deep to be fixed.
Of course not. I didn’t say it did. Substitute “most” with “some”, and you’re closer to the point. Personally, I would restate the whole thing as “Most quiet guys are not confident, but most confident guys are quiet”. Actually, I would almost dare go so far as to say “all truly confident guys are quiet”…but, not having met every guy in the world, I can’t say that for sure. I can’t quite conceptualize what sort of being a truly confident loudmouthed jackass would be, but that doesn’t mean that one doesn’t exist somewhere.
Most people, to me, give off whatever vibes they’re consciously trying to give off. The ones that try to give off a certain type of vibe but but fail instead give off vibes of falsehood and deceit…even moreso than your average person. Everyone that doesn’t fall into one of those two categories isn’t trying to give off any vibes, and therefore gives off the vibe of “person doing some stuff”. With them, the only thing you can do (aside from talking to them, obviously) is watch the stuff they do and try to extrapolate from that. As I said above, anything beyond that is claiming some sort of “sixth sense” ability, which is unlikely to be accurate at a greater rate than random chance.
Yes it does. In my experience, it is true. Perhaps my experience is limited. That does not change the fact that the vast majority of women I have encountered have defined “confidence” to me one way, and revealed their true desires in another. Generally, they do this by professing attraction to the sort of confidence as I have defined it, and yet choosing in practice to date total fucking cocks. That has happened; I have seen it happen; I have seen it happen in the majority of cases I have encountered, and that is the sum total of what my original statement meant. It would be a generalization only if I were to attempt to apply it to all women, or if I were to act differently toward other individual women based on it. I do not. An additional example: in my experience, people who go out for lunch after church on Sunday do not tip well. Generalization? No. Observation. And, because I do not allow it to affect the quality of service I give, it’s not a prejudice, either. I am not judging, I am telling of my past experience. That is not “generalizing” about anything.
I agree that there are telltale signs of the truly spineless. If a guy really is a complete doormat, it’ll be fairly obvious if you spend any significant amount of time around him. I would argue, however, that the closest existing thing to a “sign” of true self-confidence is a lack of obvious signs to the contrary (and, for those keeping track, acting like an asshole IS a sign to the contrary). There are two basic archetypes of people who don’t display blatant signs of insecurity: confident guys, and spineless losers who mask themselves well. How do you tell the difference? See above.
Simply put: determining whether or not a particular guy possesses self-confidence or is merely a spineless loser in disguise cannot be done on the basis of observation alone. It isn’t a “sixth sense” thing, and it isn’t something a guy can actively project. You actually have to get to know the guy. Yeah, that’s much more difficult than pretending you can just “know”, but the truth is hard sometimes. Like it or not, real, honest-to-God self-confidence is an inner quality, and you have to look for it before you can find it.
I wasn’t suggesting it was. In fact, I somewhat recommend against trying too hard to help them out, because usually people like this don’t realize they’re missing something. I certainly didn’t. Don’t teach pigs to sing.
At the same time, I don’t think it’s fair to blame them for not being socialized. It’s not something you really have any control over – if nobody flirts with you in high school, then nobody flirts with you in high school, and you just have to wait until you get enough experience that things start making sense, and that can take a long, long time.
–p
I have to say that telling a guy he’s a loser, treating him as a loser, dismissing him as a loser, and generally avoiding him at all costs, will not cause him to build any self-confidence in himself.
Basically what you’re expecting of him is “You know that stuff about ‘being yourself’? Well, for you it’s the opposite. Be someone you’re not.”