161,000 was the number I quoted in error :eek: - their number is 144,000.
Maybe I should start a religion?
“Our Heaven is bigger!” 
144,000 is a number of chosen ones mentioned in Revelation about those who will co-rule with Christ. That’s a big book with lots of numerical symbolism.
It seems that with each passing decade, JWs have softened some and the wedge-your-foot-into-the-door proselytizing attitude is dying off with older members. I know more down-to-earth JWs these days than decades ago when they believed the generation of 1914 wouldn’t pass away before ‘the end would come.’
Most of the JWs I’ve hung out with are good people who’d give you the shirt off their back, whether you took their literature or not. Many would rather not push their beliefs on you, and a good percentage of them would rather not be ringing your doorbell in the evangelical door-to-door work on Saturday morning or any day. Some conscientious JWs won’t even keep track of the time or placements they make. As someone mentioned, YMMV, and each JW may have individual varyings.
Their literature today reflects a more compassionate attitude towards its members and humankind than the hard-lined sandwich-sign writings from the management of the past. Lots of things have changed in the world since the late 1800s. And in this religion, thank goodness!
Much as I disagree with most of his unique teachings, I always thought Charles Taze Russell’s writings were very irenic & compassionate. The change in attitude seems to me to be blamable of Judge Rutherford.
Why was 9/11 a turning point in her case?
Our cousin mentioned that “all the prophecies in the Bible have come true” - does anyone know which ones they mean? I also remember reading somewhere that they geared up for major events 3 times during the 20th century which never happened - what were they?
Martha, my wife’s been a JW all her life. She was very worried about the unintended consequences of our marriage. She thought her father, who is an elder in his kingdom hall, would loose his status as an elder.
You were given a toned down version of the religion because hitting you with everything at once is more likely to turn off from the start. Once they get you, the unsavory aspects of the cult begin to show. Each kingdom hall has it’s own insular policies. My wife’s current hall does not outright forbid non-JW relationships or higher education but they are discouraged. There are over 250 members in her hall and only a handful of college degrees. This is an a middle class, mostly caucasian neighborhood.
Yup, when I was growing up JW, there was to be a period after Armageddon of one thousand years where the dead would be resurrected, and schooled in the ways of God. Satan would be bound and helpless during this time. And mankind would be perfect, so of course nearly everyone would see the reason and pure bliss of Jehovah’s wisdom, and would be eager to comply.
After the thousand years, Satan would be turned loose again, and no doubt he will try to mislead everyone again. But he will only be loose “a short time”. 500 years? 60 years? 20 minutes? Who knows. But after this short time, Satan will be destroyed, along with any creatures, human or spirit, whom he can convert to his side in the short time he’s allowed.
And then, Jehovah and all the heavenly host will live happily ever after, and perfect mankind will live happily on their paradise earth, until the sun burns up in six billion years…(Whoops! That last bit about the sun isn’t part of the doctrine. My apologies.)
One point which was never touched on, and I must admit I never thought of it until now, is will the people who die at Armageddon be in the resurrection? My guess is that if I asked, the answer would be no. But come on! Those people were there when Armaggedon happened! They would be the most easily converted when the surviving Witnesses point at them and say, “See, we told you so!”
Are they still going on about the United Nations being the Great Beast? I haven’t checked in lately.
Hey,
At least somebody (you) is trying to sneak a little real science into this stuff 
Thanks for your insights, Two Many Cats. At which point did you break away? What were the consequences?
Yes! I forgot that bit. She informed us that it was a well-known fact the UN has detailed plans filed away in its NYC HQ to do away with religion. Presumably they intend to activate this wicked plot at some undisclosed point in the future.
I said (slightly mischievously) that (unfortunately) this could not succeed. The best the UN could hope for is that by continuing to promote education, humans would eventually realise that all religions were man-made products of their times, and that one can live perfectly well without them, but that this would be a long process.
What were the consequences, if any?
I hope she was toning it down to minimise the gulf between us and to preserve our close friendship (successful), and that she left the pamphlets to help us understand her motivation (unsuccessful - I can’t bring myself to look at them).
Of course, from her point of view it’s a bonus if she manages to net a convert in the process. But as I told her, I’m more likely to win Miss Universe than to take on any religion.
Probably the UN persecution of Christians, Christ’s Wrath unleashed at Armageddon, and His Millenial Kingdom.
For the list of major prophecies, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 is Jesus’s basic list: wars, famine, disease, earthquakes, celestial disruptions, persecution, false Christs & false prophets. Problem is that may have been Jesus’s list of things to occur (and did) before the End Times of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. To JWs, World War I really launched “The Final Generation”, but that generation is soon dying out.
Most Christian groups that forcus on End-Times prophecy also focus on the restoration of Israel. For some reason, the JWs don’t, nor do the Seventh Day Adventists. However, Charles Taze Russell did preach about the regathering of the Jews to Israel & was an early Zionist. The Bible Students groups which still circulate his writings also follow his example.
It wasn’t so much a break away, as an erode away. I was quite devout until my mid-twenties. It was the complete rejection of evolution which started it. I couldn’t get my head around the notion that all these scientists were in on this big conspiracy to deny God in order to advance selfish sexual freedom. Also the balance of nature played a part. Witnesses use examples from nature to illustrate the boundless wisdom of Jehovah. Sometimes, the balance of predator-prey was mentioned, as well as imperfect man’s upsetting of it in their selfishness.
But wait a minute! In the new world, the predator-prey deal will be done away with! Lions lying down with lambs and all that. The lion will eat straw like the ox. All predators will become vegetarian. Holy cow! With ungulates not being eaten and still eating greenery and now former predators eating greenery too, the land will be stripped clean in no time!
Oh no, no, no, God will take care of all that. It will be like the Garden of Eden.
Huh? If the balance of nature is proof of God’s wisdom, why was it different in the Garden of Eden? Because of Adam’s sin? Why would God make animals eat each other because of what Adam did? And why isn’t all this mentioned in Genesis?And so on, and so on. I was halfway content with the usual Witness reassurance that all these unanswerables were unimportant because God was in charge of everything, and all would be revealed after Armageddon.
But then, in the mid-eighties, during a time when the Bethel crowd was having problems with apostacy among themselves, there was a big push from the higher ups to circle the wagons among the faithful. I guess. They never mentioned what was going on. But suddenly, they announced at the assemblies: You must be careful and cling to everything the Society says! Do not question it! “This is no time for independent thinking!”
Yep, those were the exact words, “This is no time for independent thinking!”
Well, dear god! If there was anything in the world that I treasured it was my intellect! I didn’t mind the strict rules about conduct, about morality. I was only slightly preturbed about the subservient role of women in a godly society. But now, I wasn’t supposed to question? I wasn’t supposed to think? It was intolerable.
It took awhile for all this to percolate through my life. I went to meetings less and less. I didn’t do any door-to-door stuff, which I had secretly hated doing anyway. I did things, little things that were forbidden. An office Christmas party here. I signed a birthday card there. I stood up for the National Anthem. (I wasn’t so proud of that, but it really is a pain in the ass to sit when everyone else is standing. You really feel the entire crowd.) I took a big step when I registered to vote. My first vote was for John Kerry. I regret that my first vote couldn’t have been for Barack Obama, but oh well…
My mother is still very devout, and hopes that someday I will come back. She doesn’t nag though. We’re very close, and can talk about this subject, but not with complete ease.
The United Nations thing I was always ambivalent about. The Society would always try so hard to make it seem sinister, but to me, it always seemed well-intentioned, but inept and ineffectual. About as threatening as the Peace Corps.
The key question for me was - is their rejection by society in proportion with the outlandishness of their beliefs and customs, compared to other religions/sects?
I think I reacted in a relatively positive way because I have more time for a religion that provides a code of conduct for its members, who abide by that code, as opposed to religions where followers rarely abide by the rules but mostly treat it as an amulet when convenient, invoking direct divine intervention for major and trivial events - “thank God I didn’t get on that plane that crashed (never mind all the poor bastards who did)” to “thank God the baby had a shit before we left the house so that I wouldn’t have to change him in the car”.
Of course, I see religion and belief in purely utilitarian terms - social control, explaining the inexplicable, providing comfort, etc.
“If you want to make sure something doesn’t get done, give it to a committee.” (Paraphrased from Heinlein). The UN is the committee to end all committees…
There’s a comic strip, Mafalda, which is very well-known among Hispanics; references to it are often used as shorthand. One of the new words it introduced into the language is ONUtil: UNseless.
My mother is a JW (dabbled in it back when I was a kid and then was agnostic/an “Objectivist” for many years and about 17 yrs ago got into JW in a big way). So is my sis-in-law.
Neither one of them is pushy about it or refuses to socialize with non-members.
But just the occaisional mention of what the Bible says (presented as fact in discussions…whatEVER! :rolleyes:)
I always found the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead (found in other Christian sects as well, as in all those who died before Christ will be raised on that day) a bit silly…the very idea that you will suddenly find yourself raised from the dead and facing God and be given a choice of eternal life in Heaven (or on Earth) or eternal torture (or death) in Hellfire.
Um, who’s gonna say “I choose Hell.” 
But overall, I don’t find JW doctrines any sillier than those of any other religious sect.
I don’t know specifically. She just said that 9/11 made her reevaluate how seriously she was treating her faith. I assumed it was one of those “The world may be ending soon. I’d better get on the ball” situations. From what I can understand, nominal JWs may not get resurrected at the end of time. (I don’t believe they believe in Hell.)
My grandfather has spent his whole life denying the existence of God in a sort of hope-against-hope fashion. He is convinced that, given his life choices, he WILL burn in Hell if there is a Hell, therefore he hopes there isn’t a God (and a Hell). He believes, but he’s against what he believes.