Also remember its Hollywood. There is a term “danger close”. Basically you don’t want to call in artillery if you are within a certain distance unless it’s a dire emergency. Hollywood usually doesnt show the distances involved.
They DID get hit themselves. “Friendly Fire” incidents have always been common in artillery and close air support bombing. Even the modern gps guided munitions used in the Gulf War have hit their own troops. Movies don’t usually include any of that.
I just got done reading With the Old Breed, by E.B. Sledge, who was a 60mm mortar operator with a Marine infantry company on Peleliu and Okinawa.
He mentioned that whenever his unit dug in, one of the first things they would do is pre-register their mortars on one or two spots they thought they might need to fire quickly at. He also commented that one of the benefits of these small, just-behind-the-foxholes weapons was that they could be directed at enemy targets much closer to friendly troops than the bigger, more distant stuff could.
He also recounted an incident when his unit was getting hit by “short rounds” fired from a friendly artillery unit and the frantic (and profanity-filled) radio conversation as the observer tried to get them to knock it off…
A lot of the early development of computers was for doing the computation for the firing tables for the artillery.
http://ftp.arl.army.mil/~mike/comphist/61ordnance/chap1.html
Before this was usually done by rooms full of woman using calculators.
I understand they had good maps. And I understand the concept of calling in artillery to hit a square on that grid. What I dont understand is how the small infantry company knew exactly where they were on that map. I understand they would have a general idea. But if they think they are at position A when in reality they are 300 meters forward of that, they are gonna get hit.
I was dubious because no matter how good your maps are, a bunch of guys running around the countryside aren’t gonna know precisely where they are. Not without GPS.
Defenders in a prepared position with bunkers and overhead protection can emerge mostly unscathed from a light bombardment from mortars and the like, where the attackers out in the open would fare much worse, so it’s not unheard of to bomb one’s own position with mortars when the defenders are known to be well entrenched.
The attackers mostly know this so if they ever do manage to take a position then finding overhead protection is foremost on the agenda as the enemy artillery will have already registered their own positions as a matter of course and will be arriving presently.
This is not true.
Are both of you kidding me? This was an IMMEDIATE SUPPRESSION fire mission. “When engaging a planned target or target of opportunity that has taken friendly maneuver or aerial elements under fire, the observer announces IMMEDIATE SUPPRESSION” (FM 6-30)
They were in contact with an enemy force of superior numbers. They shifted from a known point, (in this case, “Phase Line Yellow”) giving the lateral shift (left or right), the range shift (add or drop), and the vertical shift (up or down). All of this can be clearly seen in the clip, and it is all quite accurate. No pun intended.
ETA: “Phase Line Yellow” or at least some part of it, was most likely a linear target. If you notice in the video, the rounds impacted in a line, not in a shotgun type pattern. This would make sense as this was likely a preplanned defensive linear target.
They didn’t always know precisely. So they got hit sometimes. But you can pinpoint yourself fairly well using landmarks, maps, and a compass, and the artillery policy discouraged fire with troops closer than a built-in margin of error that accounted for this inaccuracy. Which didn’t always work.
To be clear, these were not coordinates. They were more like instructions. The artillerymen already had a target nearby that was preplanned and possibly even had the guns already aimed at it, just waiting for a call to fire on it.
Turns out they didn’t need that specific target shot at, so they called up and gave them adjustments from that target so they could quickly aim and lay down fire on the needed location.
Think of it this way. You and your friend decide to meet at Startbucks on the corner of 30th and 5th Ave sometime after he gets off work. He will call you when he is ready. Situation dictates that he doesn’t want you to meet him at Starbucks anymore. He calls you and says “I am at Smootie King across the street and one block west of Starbucks. I need you here now!”
You may not have known where Smootie King is, but you knew where Starbucks is, and you know the distance and direction from Starbucks, so you will find it easily.
If that helps…
As mentioned by others, using a good map you can get a pretty accurate position from landmarks. This was Europe, not the middle of the Sahara or Antarctica. The maps would have accurately portrayed roads, rivers and streams, houses and buildings, and topographical features. Also, it was WWII. There was no other practical way to do it.
Didn’t notice this part. Three main things, used together.
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Pace Count
Every infantryman is taught to learn his pace count. He should know with some degree of accuracy how far he has walked based on how many steps he has taken. A Person in every squad would be appointed Primary Pace man whose main job during movement was to keep track of the pace and distance traveled. When a company was on the march, there would be soldiers in the HQ element with the FOs keeping track of this. -
Compass
Direction to go with your distance. -
Terrain Association
Use things like roads, land features, buildings, train tracks, etc to reestablish your position as often as possible.
These three things would be constantly cross referenced automatically throughout the movement. Sometimes a halt would be necessary if things are not adding up as they should. For instance if you have walked 3 km and still not reached the railroad you expected to cross. Stuff like that. Halting to check the map was common practice and to this day is a meme used to tease new LTs who get lost.
The art and science of land navigation is still taught in the modern Army even with GPS and has not changed much–if at all–since the days of WWII.
I didn’t bother looking at the clip. The above info from the other poster is correct in general circumstances. It’s Hollywood, so it wouldn’t be surprising if they fudged it. I was in the Marines over 25 years ago, so my recollection of details is fuzzy, but the gist is correct.
Quintas, it all adds up to that maybe an average civilian just running around the countryside helter skelter isn’t going to know exactly where he is without a GPS. BUT, a company of trained infantry under reasonably competent leadership, maneuvering in pursuit of a mission objective, is darn tootin’ expected to be keeping track of where they are to within a certain tolerance, and at the time and in the place described (Western European Theater, WW2) they had the training and tools to do so, as Ludovic and Bear Nenno describe. Tactical land navigation “the hard way” - map & compass - is a skill that battlefield units had honed very well, as their lives depended on it.
Every now and then someone transposed one of the numbers or mistook the ford at the foot of one hill for the one 100 metres downstream, and got himself shelled: (mis)Fortunes of war. Or else nevermind me, we gotta stop that attack here and now.
Had there not been a specific situation in the OP, yes that statement would have been generally correct. But when stated in reference to the video and summed up as “It’s Hollywood”, it was not correct.
The ability to accurately hit a target just by a map alone was developed during WW1.
Various targets are preregistered. So they know which direction and elevation to fire to hit a particular target. The infantry says fire at target blah, and the artillery looks up the preregistered angle and elevation they worked out earlier to hit that target.
The spotter can later adjust where the shells are landing, calling in corrections.
If you don’t have time to preregister, then artillery is less accurate and takes longer to become accurate and has a higher chance of being significantly off target.
- Identification of Observer
- Warning
- Location of Target (Add/Drop and Left/Right from known point)
- Description of Target
- Method of Fire and Control
Radio operator went through these steps, although the camera and microphone were not focused on him the whole time.
- Easy (something), Easy (something), Reinforcing at Phase Line Yellow, Plus 1 Strike 3
- Fire Concentration Charlie (preplanned type of fire)
- Drop 200, Left 100 (there was a windmill that could have been the known point)
- Krauts in the Open
- Fire for Effect (no time to Fire and Adjust)
From what I saw of Band of Brothers, they was a lot less “Hollywood” than most productions.
One could say that those were coordinates of a sort, just with the preplanned target at the origin of the coordinate system.
It would be a nasty trick if the enemy posed as a forward observer and called in fire onto the other sides troops. :eek:
In WWII it wouldn’t have been that hard to patch into the wire that ran back to the command center. Or even used a radio receiver to listen to transmissions. They could learn names, pass codes etc. Then use that info to direct a attack against the other side.
Today encryption would make it much harder to pull off.
Bolding added:
You do realize you just agreed with me, right?