India, and Indians.

The BBQ Pit
1

Hi, this is my first post.

I have been aware of the SDMB for some time now. I have a friend who has been going here for a few months now, and I won’t mention whom this person is, because he/she does not want me to. So, basically I have been aware that this place, is a place to discuss, and not get (too much) bullshit/critisism for voicing an opinion.
I am posting in the BBQ pit, because I was not interested in a discussion (though I would like to hear what others think) but more of a, well…rant!

Now, on with it!

(Please note, that I am discussing, India, not Native peoples)

When you think of India, what do you think of?
I think of poverty, sadness, filthy streets, low education, little clothing on people, crowded streets, crime, and just a horrible place to live.
I am aware that not all places are like this in India, but for the most part it is. It makes me feel bad that the people living there do not have a toilet, but a hole in the ground. Not beds, but wooden cots. Poverty, with little hope for finding jobs. I have had Indian food, which is not tasty. The rice is bitter and lacks flavour, all their “sweets” are odd and have not a good taste but a strange sweet, minty, gross-ness.
India is so sad of a country, and there is nothing we or they can do about it. If I was a citizen in that country, I would hope and pray that I would never hear about this place called Canada, or the United States of America. Because when you see someone with something nice, it bothers you because you don’t have it.
But you can work, gain money and make your dream come true.
But for many Indian people, you can never be officially a Canadian or American. It’s just out of the question. And knowing about these places, would give me a terrible sadness. Knowing that something so amazing could never happen to me, would just fill me with a depression so large, that suicide may be my only resort.

Now before you start posting how rude it is of me to say things like this, I’d like to point out that my mother is from, yes, Bombay, India. (Now re-named, Mumbai)
I have Indian in my blood, and it is a horrible reputation I get from other people who do not know me, to think that others like my heritage are living in such a dissaray. I feel insulted when people without knowing me or asking me, think I have A Native or Aboriginal or even a “paki” background. I will admit my skin is a gorgeous shade, that many people spend hours in tanning beds to get, but its not worth it. The reputation I get from having “my kind” in the unfortunate state they are in is quite, depressing.
I am proud to say that the great movies, The 6th Sence, Unbreakable(<~~ One of my all time favorite movies), and the recent, Signs, are all done by a great Indian man. And that the extremely popular e-mail service, (you may have heard of it, Hotmail?) was made then sold by an Indian person. (name?)
But people just aren’t impressed when I tell them this. And why should they be? We could easily see another Sci-fi movie, and use another e-mail service. And just because you see several Indian doctors, doesn’t make them all smart. There are alot more American/Canadian doctors to outnumber them 200:1.

Indian people, for the majority are not mean. They do not hate anything in particular, they do not want to live like the way they do. And in my opinion they shouldn’t. They don’t deserve to be living with such a low standard of life. I have been to India, and many people there have very, well “Get the hell away from me” faces. This gives me, again a bad reputation. they still feel, and live (to their own way) an ordinary life. Many Indian people are kind and generous. Meet my Indian family, and you will see they are just like you and me.
Sterotypes exist, and I will be a victim of them. I truly wish that they would have a more role-modelish society, so I can proudly say I am Indian.

But I can’t.

Being Indian may give me drawbacks in society. For racism is still there, but not in the way you may think. No, no one ever would say “Get out of my restaurant, you damn Paki!” But they may give a nervous smile when they pass you by, or perhaps, stare at you when amongst a group of “white skinnned” people. Many people treat me with respect, and I thank them dearly for it.
I fortunately am not a victim, or can ever recall being a victim of racism. This makes me smile, but I can’t shake off the fact that I have a sad, and almost repulsive background. Even though it was not me in particular, but “my kind” and that makes me one of them. It makes me so sad to think that I would be interrogated if I was anywhere near the 2 towers when they went down, because I resemble the cunts who took down those buildings. I have been called a Paki, in a humourus way, but it still sucked having to defend myself and saying that I was not one. That I have nothing to do with those people and never will.
My uncle, was supposed to go to a wedding soon after 9/11. This wedding was across the border and he stated he would not go, because of his Indian background, he knew the authorities would have an eye on him.

Being the minority in school isn’t fabulous either.
You can tell that when they arrange classes for the year, that somewhere it is writen down that this person has a different skin color, and all those with this darker skin must be mixed between the classes to create diversity. They don’t want to be mean, but fuck, it should be random.

So, in conclusion I don’t hate Indians, but I hate the background they give me. And the weight that goes with being one.

I wish I wasn’t Indian.

(I know this is slightly off topic, but I want everyone to know my age is 16 and I am male, your judgement about me/my topic may change accordingly)

2

They say that about Los Angeles, too.

3

You’re a Canadian now. Don’t wish you didn’t have Indian blood, glory in it. The country that gave you your DNA has a great history. Sure, the country is pretty rough around the edges right now, but so what? I consider them a “second world” country (not third, but not first either). Don’t worry too much about their economic problems - you’re not a citizen there and they may very well sort it out on their own.

Anyway, what I’m saying is that you are 16, and it is understandable for you to be going through a small “crisis” about your identity. Buck up. You are obviously intelligent and well spoken. You’re not an Indian, you’re a Canadian. You’re a Canadian, Shaymalan is an American and ya’lls Indian blood is a good thing*.

Indian blood. Man. Man, oh man. I can’t get enough of Indian women. Please excuse me for getting a bit lurid, but their hair. Lord, their hair. It’s like cat hair. So smooth. So… uhm, I can’t even explain it. I’m not talking about her head, either ;). Why the hell did I break up with her? Oh well, young and stupid I suppose. Don’t make the same mistake I did. Indian is a good thing.

4

India has certainly a lot of downsides (though including the weird taste of sweets don’t strenghten your argument) and it’s very unfortunate that you have to cope with racism.

But India gave birth to one (or should I write to several) of the brightest civilizations in world history. So, I find very sad that you’re rejecting your heritage so utterly…

5

Ummm, Beeblebrox, “2nd World” typically means Communist, which they aren’t. They’re the world’s largest Democracy. Although the divisions are really useless now so … shrugs

You know, I guess I could say something but I think it will be better if I don’t say anything. Except don’t sweat it. Things always seem to work themselves out. And you do control your own destiny.

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Yeah, but in post-Cold War times I prefer the term “second world” better than “emerging”. I don’t like calling India an “emerging” nation as it’s been around awhile and would prefer not to describe a country with such a history as if it were just coming into existence. The nation can’t be described as “first world”, but it’s not “third world” either. I know that the term “second world” is typically applied to the countries in the USSR’s sphere of influence, but the Soviets aren’t around anymore. I’m thinking that the term “second world” works here because communist countries typically were in the same economic situation as India - neither “first world” nor “third world”.

But, Hell, it may be more of a personal terminology rather than an accepted one. I don’t want to get into a semantic debate, so if anyone disagrees with my usage of the term I will be more than happy to drop it.

7

I guess my first reaction is; wow ! and my second is to ask a question: Have you ever been to India ?

I ask because it’s a country of which I have the fondest memories. I adore the people, love their culture, food, their version of the English language and the precision with which it’s used, the trains, the countryside, the coasts, the amazing entrepreneurial skills, saris, the sense of humour and sincerity, family values, the enthusiasm for cricket (and increasingly sport in general – check out the medals table of the current Commonwealth Games), debate and democracy…the list goes on for some way…

Sure there’s much poverty but there’s also the largest middle class on the planet. Sure there’s a class/caste system but name me an ‘old’ country where there isn’t, or a ‘new’ country where it’s not based on money.

Poverty – and its consequences - is hardly the fault of the people. In fact, I found the greater the poverty in India, the greater the sense of personal dignity, morality and just old-fashioned decency – and that isn’t the case everywhere one travels.

I worry you’ve assumed simplistic, ‘uneducated westerner’ and stereotypical views of India. And also adopted an ignorant, first world judgemental perspective. Doing that does you no service.

Without knowing much of you, I tend to think your post speaks more of you and your struggle to deal with a multi-ethnic heritage than it does of one of the most fascinating and beautiful countries (and people) in the world, IMHO. I’d suggest you start to look at that rather than blame a people who already know how to populate their lives with personal dignity and respect in, often, very difficult circumstances.

Unfortunately the phrase was first associated with a fellow Canadian of yours, but, nonetheless, I can only say, as many, many have done before: Thank you, India.

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Well, India is about as third world as they come. There are poorer places, statistically, but I’ve never been anywhere with as much outright poverty constantly in my face as India.

Teelo - you are posting in the right part of SDMB. You’re pissed off because you don’t want to come from where you come from. It’s a dump. A hell-hole. And people where you are now associate you with that. You get called names. I’d be pissed too. Actually ALL 16 year olds are pissed off about something, and their backgrounds are as good a reason as any.

FWIW (For what it’s worth), India is a big deal in a lot of ways.

Its food has a huge number of fans all over the world, including here in HK. In the UK, they offer curry in school canteens - for all the kids, not just the Indians. Learn to appreciate it.

Its classical art and culture is up there with Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Arabs. Its linguistic and religious influence spread to Thailand, Vietnam, Indonesia centuries ago. Its talented people today wield huge influence in commerce in Hong Kong, not to mention the UK, Africa, Asia, Canada, and in technology in Silicon Valley, etc.

The country itself is a bit of a mess now, and the government today is influenced by bigots and Hindu supremacists. But if Germany can overcome Nazism, India can put these guys behind them in the future. The country has a tradition of freedom of speech and pluralism, which China and Russia certainly don’t have. Anyone who studies these things has a fair bit of respect for India. Anyway, that’s where you’re from, so live with it.

At least get into the food, for heaven’s sake.

9

It’s understandable to be going through a bit of an identity crisis at this point in your life. I’m willing to bet that this will get better once you go to college and meet other people of Indian descent. This is what happened to my boyfriend, and now I even get frustrated that he doesn’t seem to have any close “White” friends that I can identify with.

As you get older you will start making your own decisions pertaining to how you will preserve or discard elements of your culture: whether to follow Hinduism/ Sikhism/ Islam like your family, whether you will marry an Indian or a Western girl, and how you will teach your children about Indian culture. It will be a hard road for a little while, but the end result will be something you’ll be happy with, I guarantee it.

If you are bothered about the poverty in India, you ned to realize that education and family plannig is the only way for these people to raise themselves out of these circumstances. Since you are only in high school, I would suggest donating money to one of the organizations that provides funding for schools and literacy programs, or to one that supports family planning and works to fight discrimination against women. The organization I can think of off the top of my head is Asha for Education at www.ashanet.org .

Good luck, and keep us posted.

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Indian food is possibly my favorite food in all the world. (Mutton I can do without, but most Indian food I love.) Some of the flavors are so subtle, you have to stop and let your mouth realize what’s going on to really appreciate them. And some are so hot they make you cry. I like them all. I like my rice bitter and dry. I like minty sweets. If you were raised on hamburgers, it isn’t what you’re accustomed to, but Indian food can be fine stuff.

An injury forced me to cancel a trip I had planned to take to India a couple of years back, but it’s still next on my list of places to visit. There’s poverty, sure, but I’ve travelled in poor countries before, and I appreciate the perspective it gives me. I have enormous respect for poor people who manage to live dignified, moral lives. It’s my experience that poor people are kinder, more willing to share what they have, than rich people.

India has a fascinating history. All good and happy? No, but what country has no sadness in its history? There’s a lot of beauty in Indian culture. India has some problems. What country doesn’t?

You’re 16. I don’t mean to dismiss your opinion because of your youth, but as others have said, being 16 can be tough. It does get better. My experience is that it gets much, much better. I was unspeakably miserable at your age, for a variety of reasons, or maybe for no reason at all. I don’t remember feeling ashamed of my ancestry, but come to think of it, how’s a person supposed to be proud of having descended from a line of illiterate sharecroppers who had originally fled to the US to escape prison or starvation in their homelands? That’s where I came from.

You are an individual. “Indian” does not define you. And even if it did, the term has no negative connotations for me. I’ve known some wonderful people from India.

Also, one of the things I dislike most about myself is my pasty white skin. Enjoy your pigmentation, and as Hemlock said, at least get into the food, for heaven’s sake. Your people do magic with potatoes and garlic, and they give a new meaning to the word “bread.”

Honestly, I intended to post only one sentence, about my love for Indian food. But previewing, I realize that this is what I really want to respond to. Do not wish that you weren’t Indian. Be objective about your ancestry, learn what’s good and bad about it. There’s plenty to be proud of. But mostly, your self-respect shouldn’t come from what “your people” have done. It should come from what you do.

11

Well, I love the Indian culture and history, the cooking and cuisine is especially a favorite of mine, and my latest character in the book I’m serializing, Anrikki, is Indian. And I love the way Indian women look and dress, although very few of them are lesbians…

But one thing disturbs me - twice I had an opportunity to visit India. But didn’t - because my Indian friends at work (all three of them) told me essentially “You would die there. It’s so horrible compared to the US you wouldn’t make it.” Even when two of them were returning home for a week, and I thought I would just fly over with them and back, they told me “It’s brutal - the food is rotton, the water is bad, there are insects everywhere, there are lepers in the airports, you can be beaten, raped, robbed, or killed, and no one cares, because there are so many people crammed together so tightly that life doesn’t mean anything…” and so forth.

I really don’t know if they were correct, since I never went. But it was telling that the three of them hated their own country so much. And very sad too.

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Indian food - love it (and I mean proper Indian food from respectable Indian restaurants, not the curry house crap cooked by barely trained Bangladeshi “chefs” and served, swimming in ghee, at the table of thousands of provincial curry houses in Britain)
Indian films - love them.
Indian filmi songs - love them. They give me an almost irresistible urge to put on my shalwar kameez and go cavorting winsomely in a field, trailing a scarf behind me.
Indian clothes - love them. Every woman can look fabulous in shalwar kameez or a sari.
Bhangra - love it. There’s some very funky modern bhangra coming out of Southall these days.

Overpopulation in cities - I don’t approve.
Religious hatred between Hindus and Muslims, between Hindus and Sikhs, between Muslims and Sikhs - I don’t approve.
Child poverty - I don’t approve.

So, take a leaf out of the British Indians’ book, and combine the resources of your native land with the cultural resources of your Indian heritage, and make something really brilliant.

13

I don’t understand this. Indian food is glorious. Indian society is one of the most educated in the world. The literature that is produced (Arundhati Roy, Manil Suri) is absolutely gorgeous. And without a doubt, the Indian people are the most physically beautiful people on earth. I WISH I were Indian.

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Thank you, London_Calling, for your wonderful post. It saves me some trouble.

Now, to answer to Teelo’s post:

It seems to me that you have gravely misunderstood the strengths of India, while hyperbolizing its weaknesses.

It is ironic that a person who himself/herself misunderstands the beauty of a land, expects others to understand it.

The negative response that you receive from people as a result of being considered Indian is because they, like you, have a skewed sense of the reality that is India.

I welcome you to the SDMB, and hope that you will join us in the fight against ignorance.

Anthracite, i welcome you to visit this country. Yes, you will be shocked by the poverty of the people. Perhaps you will be taken aback by the filth. Maybe the food won’t be your definition of manna. These things will blur in your memory, when you will understand the depth of the people who live it everyday. Their warmth and joy will touch you. And you will return happy. And shocked… but for different reasons.

15

Poverty, yes. But low education? Many of the Indians that I know are highly educated. Go into many engineering schools and take an informal census of the faculty. Chances are you’ll find more than a few Indians.

There’s a stereotype out there that Indians are computer geeks. So I don’t think “low education” is something you should attribute to Indians.

I’m speaking as someone who is a descendant of African slaves. And you know what? Sometimes I feel the same way about the mighty continent of Africa that you feel about India. But I’m sure folks in other places look at our selfish, decadent culture and say, “I’m sure glad I don’t live over there.” It’s all relative.

The best way to stop feeling so down on your background is to do some research. Check out some books from the library. See if you can find some clubs or social groups for Indian where you live or online. Ask your mother questions about her hometown, if possible.

Now as far as feeling sad about being a minority, well I feel ya, but you’re going to have to learn how to deal with it without feeling sorry for yourself. It’s not going to help you in the long run. Take pride in your brown skin and non-white features and don’t worry about trying to fit in. That’s really all you can do. Your identity will slip into place when you’re ready for it.

If black people in America had that attitude, we’d be nowhere right now. In addition to reading some Indian literature, I recommend you pick up a few books by black Americans. IMHO, you can view that “weight” in two ways: a burden or an inspiration. Guess which way is more productive.

16

It seems lots of people like India, which is good to feel loved!
I still think it is a slum though.
Having “western” food has steered me away from having Indian food. My mum sometimes makes rice, (Birniani?) and it tastes like crap, so I have something else.

I’d like to point out that I have no Indian accent, know any Indian Words, and have little knowledge of my mum’s Indian days growing up. If or when I have kids I won’t tell them about India, unless they ask. But that is probably a job best left for my mum. I’m sure she would like that very much.

Also I’d like to point out that I probably will come here to start posts not respond to them. This place is waaaaay to big. So much to read, and so many people it would be impossible for me to keep up with it all!
Thanks for your responses, it makes me feel a little better.

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Oh, please check your threads - it’s easy if you set the ‘email notification’ preference on - that way you get a little reminder.

I once read an interesting short story this thread reminded me of. It’s titled An Indian Odyssey by David Iglehart.

-AmbushBug

18

The entire country’s a slum? WTF? Are you completely unaware that, just like many other lands, India has the whole gamut of folks in the socio-economic strata? Saying that India’s a slum based on your obiously insufficient look at the place is like saying the United States of America is a slum based on looking at the poorest parts of the country.

19

:confused:

I never said that.
Next time read the whole post!

20

Ummm who said what in the where now?

Wearia or Teelo. A cookie thing perhaps?

anyhoo I think monty was talikng about