Thanks for the thoughtful post. I guess I was trying to get a handle on how many years lost vs the increased happiness. Sort of tough one, I know.
Frontline, anti-tick spray?
Too funny! My cat, Merengue, is also trained to come in on a whistle. He’s allowed in the backyard in Brooklyn, and has all his shots. I lock him in at night, which he’s fine with as long as he’s out exactly at 6:00 in the morning. I keep him in because cats and dogs were disappearing back in 1996. Nobody knew why, but I’m still a little paranoid.
Have you had outdoor cats in the past? How’d they do?
Do you honestly not see the problem I, and probably other people, have with the argument that it’s better for cats to be left to run around free because it’s natural for them or makes them happy, when that argument seems to apply only to cats. Why is it okay to keep a dog inside and not a cat? Why is it okay to keep a hamster in a cage but not okay to keep a cat in a house or apartment? Why is it not okay to, as one poster said, “make that decision” for a cat, but it’s okay to make that decision for a dog, or a gerbil, or a white rat? The cat is no more used to and no more demanding of that freedom than any other animal that may be kept as a pet.
Our three cats are indoor/outdoor. We let them out during the day, if they wish, but they return home when we whistle for them before dark. They rarely stray any farther than the edge of our property, so they don’t meet dangerous animals or cars, and since they’re spayed or netured they don’t wander off looking for tail, as it were.
They’re all 11.5 years old, so it doesn’t seem to have shortened their life-spans much. I know people get very upset about the “song birds” but of the dozen or so birds they’ve managed to catch throughout the years, they’ve all been bluejays and robins, of which there are many. These cats prefer to kill moles which fewer people care about.
We had an indoor/outdoor cat who was found dead in the road just short of his 6th birthday. In that he was always very wary of cars, we suspect that he was murdered.
That cat’s parents, also indoor/outdoor, lived long lives. The mother died in 2000 just short of 17 years old. The father died this year at age 16.
Whether or not to let a cat outdoors depends upon the cat. If the cat seems fairly intelligent and shows a real interest in the outdoors, we’ll allow him or her out.
Our 10-year-old cat has been allowed out from kittenhood. He’s highly intelligent and automobile-wary. As a kitten, he always seemed mentally advanced for his age.
Our 6-month-old kitten seems too stupid to trust not to run straight out into traffic. Fortunately, he has a greater affinity toward our ferret than toward the older cat and thus shows almost no interest in the outdoors.
Well, actually, I do think it's rather cruel to keep hamsters, pet birds, or tropical fish as pets because you do have to keep them caged up. (Then again, I don't think any of these are as intelligent as cats and therefore aren't quite as aware of what they're missing. Debatable point, but there it is.)
I know almost no one who argues that dogs should be indoor only. In fact, most people would argue that never allowing a dog outside would be cruel. Dogs are put out on leads, taken for daily walks and runs in the park, or can be left in a fenced yard. Ever try keeping a cat in a fenced yard?
So yes, I still think your argument is specious. If I could keep my cat in a fenced in yard, I would do so. I do keep her on a lead when she’s outside.
I think you’re missing an important point here- cats are domesticated animals. They are in no sense of the word wild- they cannot live without the care of humans. Now, if you’re going to argue about whether or not the very process of domestication is ‘wrong’ or ‘unnatural’, I’m sure plenty of posters would be more than happy to debate that with you in another thread. For the purposes of this thread, we are talking about cats that are already domesticated and have been for quite possibly tens of thousands of years. (Not sure on the exact numbers here.)
As for the other animals you mention, the only one I’ll give you is birds- most species of commonly-kept birds are not domesticated, and caging them might well represent a deep loss of freedom to which they are not accustomed. (Although this too is debatable.)Hamsters are domesticated in every sense of the word- there are significant differences between the cute fuzzies people keep and the wild versions. Many popular tropical fish are also dmoesticated, insofar as people have been selectively breeding them for color and other physical characteristics. Try finding a goldfish in the wild.
But no one is arguing this. No one has said ‘never let your dog outside’. Kat and I have both argued that you would not let your dog run around outside unsupervised. There’s a big diference between taking your dog for regular walks, playing in the yard, the park, etc. and just opening the door and allowing the dog to wander around the neighborhood alone.
Wait- do you mean you put a collar/harness and leash on the cat and walk her around in the yard (like I do with my cat) or do you just tie her up and leave her out there? Because I submit that tying any animal up and leaving it outside alone is both cruel and irresponsible as well. They are tethered, and thus in great danger from wild animals and other people’s free-roaming pets. Dogs tied up outside tend to become very lonely, bored, and frustrated. It can lead to destructiveness, incessant barking, and massive aggression problems. Please tell me you’re not doing this.
See, this is the problem, here. People aren’t going to be happy unless I wrap my cat in cotton batting and keep her in a safety deposit box.
Yes, she’s supervised when she’s on her lead. (We went over this in the pit recently, one of the innumerable “I know how to take care of your cat better than you do” threads that have been popping up in the SDMB lately.) BTW, dogs tied up outside become lonely because they are separated from their pack, e.g. you. Cats are much more solitary.
BTW, I’m not sure I buy the “cats are domesticated and can’t live in the wild” statement. Both dogs and cats are known to go feral and survive in the wild. Cats can still breed with wild cats (e.g. the Bengal), so they aren’t that far from the wild species.
Granted, the following isn’t blinding insight, or even something no-one else has said, albeit in a different way. My vote is for keeping cats inside for all of the above noted reasons, plus just a few of my own observations.
(Presently I don’t have the pleasure of having any cats, although I love them on par with dogs. I do have a large, gentle, ageing Rotti whom, based on her loving reactions to my neighbours cats, would fit well with a cat companion if only the house were big enough.)
I’ve put thought into it, and can’t think of any really old, healthy outdoor cats. They really do usually seem to live shortened, violent lives with brutal ends. We’ve covered the various and sundry injuries they are afflicted with. Allow me to just add: Abcesses, possibly caused by fighting with other local animals, both wild and domesticated. (Even if one is sure their cats stay on the property, one can be equally sure other animals will not stay off of the property) They are afflicted with various scabrous skin conditions caused by tormenting parasites. Given the slightest attention, my neighbours cats stubbornly try to get into my house… I can only assume they are seeking warmth and shelter, especially in the winter. One of them, a big orange Tom, we call the “Pumpkin Cat” because he is hugely obese, yet never gets in the door of her house. Maybe it’s a tumour, or maybe even a huge cat can still hunt, who knows.
Cats that learn to dodge cars somehow, are probably just purely lucky or just avoid them out of fear. I’m tired of finding the smashed bodies of those whose luck ran out. These tiny corpses seem to turn up with dismaying regularity on the roads around here. The neighbour above mentioned, once killed a family of racoon babies which had crawled up into her car wheel-well. All except one died right there in her driveway. She flipped and did everything in her power to save the one that somehow survived. I pointed out to her that the same thing could happen to one of her cats… how could she be sure it wouldn’t? “Oh, they’re too smart for that.” I didn’t push the issue as that statement seemed evidence of the pointlessness of doing so.
It certainly seems much safer and common-sensical to keep the kitties indoors. IMHO.
Since I just had to have a stray cat put to sleep because he was FIV positive, I’m not about to let my babies outside. Both of them seem to be supremely happy, and don’t want to go out. The Siamese, in particular, knows that there’s turkey in the fridge, and she’s determined to get her fair share of it.
Come now. No one is suggesting anything like this.
This is for the most part true, but I’m still not convinced
cats are quite as solitary as mot people would naturally assume. Cats can get along very well even in large groups. I’m glad she’s supervised outside- if a wild animal or somebody’s pet attacked her, she could not exacpe if she were tied up. That is really what would concern me about a cat tied up outside.
And any species of domestic dog can breed with a timber wolf and produce fertile offspring. This has no bearing on how domesticated an animal is. As for pets gone feral, this is sort of the point of this whole debate- they simply don’t live as long as well-cared for indoor pets, for a variety of reasons.
Lynn Bodoni also brings up an excellent point- FIV is running rampant among strays and pets allowed to roam. On average, FIV cuts a cat’s life short by about 5-10 years. Keeping your cat indoors (or supervised and on lead when outdoors) greatly decreases the risk of her coming into contact with an infected animal and picking up the virus.
We inherited a cat aged 15 that had always been an indoor/ outdoor cat, she had a cat-flap and could come and go as she pleased. She lived for another seven years after we inherited her, and never did she spend one complete day inside. She eventually died aged 22 from kidney failure, nothing to do with her lifestyle, just old age.
One of our later cats was hit by a car and badly injured. Obviously we had to keep her in while the wounds healed, and she * could not wait* to be out again. Notwithstanding the fact that she’d nearly been killed by going outside, she was not going to stay in. We considered trying to keep her in but gave up.
I don’t think that ‘they’ve never known anything else’ is a valid argument for keeping a cat in, that’s no way to justify anything. Of course, if you take an indoor cat and walk it around the block it’s going to come back petrified, what did you expect? Common sense tells you that a cat won’t walk out the door and happily wander round the garden. They’ll gradually explore further and further from the door as they become comfortable with their surroundings. If I had to keep it inside I would never get a cat in the first place.
IMO cats should be able to come and go as they please.
Having said that, it would save us the trouble of clearing up the muddy footprints on the kitchen floor!
Looks like a general opinion for Europe AoS (while we are collecting anecdotal data). I mentioned the discussion to my chat-mates in a channel comprised of people from Ireland/UK/Netherlands/Scandinavia/Greece/Italy/France and a smattering of eastern euros. They fell off their collective chairs.
I have a tomcat that loves the outdoors. During the warm months, he comes in only to eat. He comes in more often during the cold months. He’s 9 1/2 years old.
My other cat stays indoors more often, but she does like to go outdoors. She’s 4 years old.
I think indoor/outdoor cats can live a long time (at least for cats). If they want to go outside, let them.
And, skammer, my cats can kill all the fucking mice and rabbits they want. It doesn’t bother me in the least.
I love the way kitties smell when they come in out of the cold. And their cold weather coats are so thick and soft. And they shit outside. And they lay around all tired when they are inside because they’ve blown off steam by dicking around outside. I like outside kitties.
[color=“purple”]My cat is an inside cat because she has no claws (i found her that way, i didn’t do it) and I believe she’d probably run away to where ever she came from (having found her in September wandering around the neighborhood but no one around here knew her) plus there’s fraternity scum living across the street who enjoy playing baseball with their beer bottles and using the neighboring lawns as urinals and recycling bins.
If I was happier with the neighborhood, I knew my cat wouldn’t run away and if she had her claws then she’d be an outside cat. Back home my family had a few cats who were all outdoors cats and still remained companions rather than pets held against their will, they lived to be thirteen and sixteen respectively.
