I was looking at the base pay charts for commissioned officers and noticed that there is a pay scale for general officers (O-7 and O-8) with less than two years of service.
Now, I know that some professionals can start at advanced officer ranks due to direct appointment (such as doctors, for example), but can someone really just “jump into” the military as a general (or even a Lt. Colonel and make the jump to Brig. General in less than two years)?
I likewise noticed a similar situation with regard to enlisted personnel. There is a base pay for E-5, E-6 and E-7 with less than two years experience. Now, I know that with a college degree you can start at E-3 (and maybe even E-4), but is there any way to be an E-7 with less than two years in the service. Is there a “direct appointment” for enlisted servicemen?
I think so for officers but they are not what the navy calls “line officers” which means they can have no command responsibility. For example, an experienced heart specialist could be commissioned directly as a high ranking officer to run a medical facility as a Colonel. He would be in charge of the hospital but would have no command authority elsewhere. Then maybe in a year or so he is appointed to run a medical center involving several hospitals and is promoted to BG. Again, he runs that complex but that’s all.
Things like that aren’t all that uncommon. For example, the pilot is in sole charge of the airplane and don’t have to take nuthin’ from nobody as to the operation of the plane except a Command Pilot. Comman pilots wear wings with a star enclosed in a wreath.
I will add though, that if I had been flying Eisenhower someplace and he said he thought we should land, I’d land. If he said we should go on but I thought the weather too lousy, or the plane unfit, I’d also land.
That’s a good gag line, but I’m not all that sure it’s accurate.
Eisenhower was the Commanding General of SHAEF. I’m not 100% sure but I don’t think that gave him direct command over the Air Force. For example, I think the Commanders of all the various Air Forces, 8th, 9th, Troop Carrier Command, etc. were appointed directly by General Arnold, AF Commanding General. I suspect Arnold would not be so foolish as to name someone who Ike didn’t want or keep someone who was distrusted by him.
I think there were times when Eisenhower was a little exasperated with foot- dragging by Generals Eaker and Spaatz in the pre-invasion air activity. As I understand it they resented diversion of forces from strategic bombing in order to attack transportation facilities in northern France to cripple the German ability to respond quickly to the invasion. And as a consequence Spaatz, particularly, was tight fisted in providing forces for that work. I think Eisenhower had to use his powers of persuasion with Spaatz to avoid an unseemly and unsettling fight between stratospheric commanders. I’m sure that Ike knew such a thing would enrage General Marshall and endanger his own positions as well as the whole Normandy operation.
So, in consequence, I don’t think they were really all Ike’s helicopters. Of which there were none, or at any rate damned few, in the ETO and if there were any they were not operating in combat units.
Ok, you caught me. I really only posted that because I like the line. As I recall, he is actually supposed to have said it when president, so they really were all his helicopters.
(The story, of course, is that the president was about to board a helicppter and was being escorted to it by a young Lieutenant.
Lieutenant: This is your helicopter, Mr. President.
Eisenhower: They’re all my helicopters, son!)
I don’t have an authoritative answer, but I always thought it was to handle wartime commissions and enlistments of foreign soldiers. I don’t know if the US has done this since Lafeyette lent a hand, but it was not uncommon (in wars up to WWII, at least) for foreign soldiers to fight for other flags. A lot of North American pilots joined the French air forces and North Americans were recruited for both the French and the British armies.
Personally, I can’t think of a situation that would call for commissioning a foreign soldier as a flag officer, but if such a situation came up it sure would suck not to have the pay details all settled, seeing as they are mandated by Congress and you can’t just work out a deal.
Getting to E-7 within 2-3 years is possible. A lieutenant might get busted into the enlisted ranks. Also, we haven’t had a “reduction in force” for a while, but should that occur, the number of slots for particular ranks could possibly result in a low ranking officer chosing to take a slot as an enlistedman rather than be discharged entirely.
Thirty years ago when I was in, I believe there was a limited program where an new enlisted man could obtain E-7 in a very short time, sometime like officer school.
Rising to the rank of general in three years doesn’t seem possible, unless the “years of service” for pay purposes isn’t exactly the same as total years in the military. If so, then a person O-6 might leave the service for a while, retain rank but not years of service for pay purposes and reenter to become a general.
I think they want to cover any eventuality, particularly in wartime. This would also cover appointments, such as the Surgeon General, who is a Vice Admiral in the Public Health Service.
There used to be a Navy program that was referred to as the “IPO” program, or “Instant Petty Officer”. The Navy would recruit professionals from civilian life and give them an NCO grade right off the bat. These guys were looked on with disdain, because they generally had little leadership experience and no combat skills.
Yes and the first part of his career was exceptional the other way. Eisenhower was just a major in the late 30s(1938?) and had graduated from West Point about 1915.
That promotion rate wasn’t at all uncommon in the Army between WWI and WWII. The authorized strength of the Army was around 150000 and it was continually short of money. Bradley graduated in 1915 was a Lt. Col. in 1936 and remained one until 1941 when he was promoted directly to BG by Gen. Marshall in order to direct training of the draftees of the peacetime draft.
Actually, it’s important to recognize that from the Civil War up to the end of World War II, the United States actually had two armies- the Regular army, and the Volunteer army.
The U.S. never liked keeping a large standing army, and so the Regular Army was very small and had very little promotion in it- there were only a few Brigadier Generals in the entire army from 1866 to 1939. That’s why Eisenhower made such little progress in the army- getting promoted was as much a matter of attrition of a small group of superiors as it was showing ability. (As comparison, I believe Douglas MacArthur was only a Lt. Colonel by that point as well, despite having served as long or longer.)
When war broke out- specifically, the Civil War, World War One, and World War Two, a Volunteer Army was created, and all members of the Regular Army received commissions from the Volunteer Army at a much higher rank. Technically, then, they’d have two ranks- their effective rank in the Volunteer Army, and their rank in the Regular Army (which they would return to after the war was over). At D-Day, Eisenhower was a Full General (i.e., 4 stars) in the Volunteer Army, but still only a Colonel in the Regular Army. Probably the most extreme example of this would be George Armstrong Custer, who was either a 1st Lieutenant or Captain in the Regular Army in 1865, but a Brigadier General in the Volunteer Army. (Which makes for a neat trick question- after the war, Custer returned back to the rank of Captain, and slowly worked his way through the ranks of the Regular Army; by the time of his death at Little Bighorn, General Custer was actually only a Lt. Colonel.)
Following World War Two, it was recognized that the U.S. needed to keep a large standing army, and so the Regular Army was completely integrated into the Volunteer Army, and the old ranks became meaningless.
MacArthur graduated first in his class from West Point in 1903 and was a Brigadier General in WWI. He was deputy to the commander of the 42nd Infantry Division. He retained that rank as Superintendant of the Military Academy after the war and became Army Chief of Staff, 4 stars, in 1930 where his most notable public achievment was leading the charge, on horseback and with drawn sword, to drive the Bonus Army out of DC in 1932. After that he was in charge of a military mission to help the Phillipines Army get ready for that nation’s independence, due in 1946, with Lt. Col. Eisenhower as his chief aide.
You can have O-7s and O-8s with less than two years’ experience due to direct appointments. I didn’t think that they went that high, but I guess I was wrong.
With enlisted ranks, you don’t have direct appointment, but you can have officers busted back to enlisted ranks (such as those at pay grades E-7 and E-8) with less than two years service.
See my post above. The military may still have programs for recruiting NCOs from the private sector. I’ve never heard of an officer being busted to an enlisted rank or even demoted, for that matter. Officers are in a different system than enlisted. If they are ‘busted’, the result is usually a request for resignation, unless it’s a crime they can go to jail for.
Zev, I believe you can have enlisted appointments to mid-level grades(E5-7). No cite at the moment, but I’ll try to dig one up. Things that come to mind (in my service anyway) is band members, which start at E5, and highly technical skills that are suddenly required, but don’t rate an officer level (translator maybe?). Also, cadets who wash out of the Academy, used to revert to an enlisted paygrade, depending on what year they were in at the time of washout. IIRC, a fourth year cadet would revert to an enlisted Quartermaster 2nd class. Sadly, we don’t have QMs anymore, so I don’t know if that’s still current policy or not.
I was under the impression that officers were not reduced in rank as punishment. Because all officers must have their appointments to whatever grade approved by the Senate, how would an officer get busted down?
For example, if an O-3 were to be busted down to an O-1, would the President then submit a nomination for that individual to serve as an O-1? :dubious: And what would happen if the nomination were rejected? Would the person continue to serve as an O-3? This just doesn’t sound right. I really thought that officers were only subject to reduction in rank because of battlefield commissions being revoked or during unusual events like the major reduction in force after WW2.
Right. The only way an officer could have reverted to enlisted would be when we still that the US Army-Army of The United States setup. We had a thread about this some time ago.
Quick review. In WWI it was realized that the war was going to require a lot of high ranking officers and those of other ranks who wouldn’t be needed after the war ended. So a completely separate administrative structure was set up called The Army of The United States (AUS). Everyone in the US Army (USA), the so-called Regular Army, was also taken into the AUS For the duration of that war, and the same thing carried over into WWII, all promotions were AUS promotions. All draftees and enlistees taken in from then on during the war were in the AUS only and had no USA status. For example in WWII my enlistment was in the AUS as was everyone else’s.
A regular army enlisted man might be given a wartime commission and that commission would be in the AUS. He would retain his USA grade and receive regular USA promotions on an entirely separate track from his AUS promotions. After the war it would be possible for him to revert to his USA enlisted grade. Unlikely, but possible. I doubt it would actually happen because I suspect that anyone who showed himself a capable officer in the war would have been offered the oportunity for a USA commission.
OK, I know it’s from earlier in the thread but I’d just like to clarify this if I can.
There are different types of wings in the AF…your basic “slick” set that you get upon graduation from flight school, the “senior pilot” one with a star and the “command pilot” ones with a wreath surrounding the star. They have everything to do with your overall experience but nothing to do with your responsibility for the flight.
Things change of course, and things might have been different in WWII than they are today. But the way things work now is…the designated Aircraft Commander is responsible for the safe conduct of the flight…period.
As an example…back when I was a young Captain flying my beloved C-141 I got called to fly a mission to Kinshasa, Zaire (this was in 1997, when Kinshasa fell). We were taking a team to coordinate evacuation/relief efforts, and the team chief was an O-6/Colonel KC-135 Wing Commander. He was a Colonel with Command pilot wings, but I was the designated Aircraft Commander. When push came to shove (and it did over the Atlantic Ocean) I was the boss, and the Colonel (a credit to his professionalism) knew it. I signed for the aircraft, and I was responsible for it’s safe operation - he was just a passenger. Besides, he was a KC-135 guy and knew nothing about the C-141.
In today’s Air Force someone with Command pilot wings can’t just barge into the cockpit and take over- the Aircraft Commander is designated before the flight, and he/she is the final authority for that flight.
[End hijack, while I bow down to David Simmon’s amazing military structure knowledge.]
