Infidelity - who's evil?

In My Humble Opinion
21

um, Nighttime? i don’t know about you, but i, as a woman, don’t go around looking for a “stud”. (most particularly not, since i’m married.)

my personal impression is that it’s guys who are most apt to label themselves or other men as “studs”, simply because they give the ol’ rod a good workout at every opportunity. women, i think, are more prone to be looking for “hunks” – and if they know how to handle things well in bed, so much the better. but guys equate guys sleeping around as virile. women may be more apt to see guys sleeping around as… guys who sleep around (and thus someone who’s not a good bet on staying with you exclusively). (granted, none of this factors in the amazing ability most people have of believing that THEY will be the exception to the rule of negative consequences.)

however, i’ll be happy to concede that both genders consider “sluts” as a less than complimentary term… although the guys probably temper the negative valuation with the presumably increased likelihood of scoring with the label’s holder.
errrr, the OP. right. Jordan easily a 9 for faithlessness. Pat probably a 0, since even without evidence of actions that would drive Jordan away, 2 wrongs still don’t make a right. Taylor, though, i would up the score to between 5 and 7. i’m sorry, but there ought to be some outside morality here. you don’t steal items from the store or someone’s home. you shouldn’t steal things like physical intimacy from someone’s marriage.

22

Wait, is Pat the husband or the wife? What gender is Taylor? Having just seen ‘Planet of the Apes’ I’m inclined to think that Taylor is Male and Jordan is Female which leaves Pat as…Well, who knows.

[hijack] Are there three other names that could possibly be more androgynous than these? Wow. How about Ricky, Scamp and Phiefer? [/hijack]

Regardless, I think your evilness rating is just about right on. The one knowingly breaching the faith is the guilty party, unless there are circumstances beyond their control.

As for Taylor, well, accomplices usually are considered equally as guilty and the perpetrators. That is, unless they fess up. In which case they’re still considered guilty but treated leniently.

23

I strongly disagree with this. Jordan broke his/her marriage vows, which is an evil act (or “wrong” or “immoral” or whatever), irrespective of Pat’s knowledge or feelings.

24

Their evilness is the same.

Both the cheatin’ parties know they’re participating in adultery.

The intensity of the consequences is where the disparity lies. Obviously Jordan is more emotionally attached and stands to be affected more, but they participate in the act at equal levels.

Marriage is a vow between the couple and society as well as between each other. It’s often a vow between the couple, society and god too depending on the nature of the wedding of course.

25

It honestly shouldn’t matter what the gender of each is. Thats the point of the exercize, after all!

For myself, I’d rank 'em as follows

Taylor - Regardless of gender, a 2. They knew they were sleeping with a married person, thus must take a certain amount of blame for helping someone break their vows. If they had not known, then they would’ve gotten a 0.

Pat - It says in the situation description “happily married”, so I must assume no abuse or particular evilness on Pat’s part. At most maybe they were boring, but thats hardly a crime: 0

Jordan - Ahhh… there’s the rub. I’d give Jordan a 7 on the scale. While its possible Jordan and Pat had some sort of arrangement laid out beforehand, the fact that Pat never learned of the tryst would cast doubt on such a theory. Thus they probably broke trust with their partner, an absolutely unacceptable deed. The cheating was just the vehicle by which Jordan did the act, no more or less evil than any other way they could’ve thought out. The only reason they didn’t get a 10 was at least Jordan made it clear to Taylor that they were married. So it wasn’t a double-deception of two innocent parties.

26

That’s a very foolish statement. By cheating, Jordan has most likely set themselves on a path of guilt, which is rather painful. Even if he/she’s not that guilty about it, their infidelity will have a negative impact on the marriage that will come out in other forms. Maybe I’m wrong, anyone here have a successful adulterous affair that had no ramifications on their marriage? I don’t think there will be many saying “yes”.

And that whole “What they don’t know won’t hurt them” excuse is a cop out. People always find out somehow, and even if they don’t, those who commit the “crime/deed” still have to deal with the results of their actions.

Now, by “Happily Married”, I’m assuming there are no problems with the marriage. Pat is not abusive or sexless, and they and Jordan have a nice, healthy marriage. This gives Jordan no justifiable reason whatsoever to cheat besides “I really need to get my rocks off now!” The marriage isn’t terminal, they’re not separated or heading towards divorce…Jordan’s just not home or with Pat. That’s not reason whatsoever. So, my ruling’s pretty much the same as everyone else.

Pat: 0

Jordan: 9…he’s stated he’s married, but we haven’t gathered whether he’s lied about it and told Taylor “Yeah, I’m married, but we’re having some serious problems right now and I don’t think it’s going to last.” Lies like that would definitely bump him/her up.

Taylor: 2-5. They didn’t initiate it, and if things were going really well, who can pass up the chance for sex with someone you connect to? Not many people, so I can’t say it’s too wrong. She didn’t force Jordan to betray their vows, and the fact Jordan was already persuing it means the blame is going to be laid on him/her. If Taylor feels guilt over it, then it shows she/he’s got a concious, which is a nice thing to think and keeps them pretty low on my scale. But, they did knowlingly engage in sex with someone they knew was married, which is a pretty bad thing to do.

As for AHunter3’s comment that such human tendancies as infidelity are “divine”, I call bullshit. There are plenty of creation stories that have mankind being made from one another (Adam and Eve), or separated from one another (Greeks) and that the concept of having “someone made for you” is pretty well founded in religious beliefs. Our desire to sleep around is more animalistic, and we like to think there’s a lot of things that separate us from the animals. Fidelity is one of them, and I don’t know of that many religous beliefs that claim otherwise (even most polytheistic beliefs call for “wives”; which is a union between people. Josiah won’t let Isichial screw around with any of his ten wives in Utah, I’m pretty damn sure).

27

Feeling lust and taking it seriously – not mindlessly, for putting some time and energy into sorting out what situation, really, is the true answer to that lust – but with respect and reverence for the lust itself, for its undefined and undelimited range and the color of its passions, and not with negatives associated with those tendencies – is the road to the divine in my religion.

Other Wiccan / Pagan folks may be of different opinion and are welcome to chime in, but this is not a belief system unique to me by any means.

I do not think one should attempt to know in advance what one is going to feel as far as sexual attraction and appetite is concerned, and furthermore should not try to put up fences and barriers to channel it.

It is my observation that there is a huan tendency to respond to unanticipated sexual lust by going with it and seeing it as good and life-affirming. People with beliefs about monogamy and whatnot often turn away from this but usually with reluctance, often with a sense that they are turning away from something that would be downright nice; and, more to the point, they often don’t turn away from it despite their professed beliefs.

Your calling bullshit don’t make it so.

28

My rating:

Pat: 0. Who knew? How could he or she be responsible for something that he/she had no part in? Barring (as others have mentioned) some sort of neglect or abuse, Pat is blameless here.

Jordan: 8 or 9. Just a sleazy thing to do.

Taylor: 7 or 8. I know that Taylor didn’t break any personal vows, but Taylor willingly helped someone else do it. It doesn’t matter whether or not Taylor knew Pat—I can’t see how that makes any difference. Taylor knowingly and willingly helped someone else break vows. Taylor benefitted from someone else breaking their vows and hurting someone else (Pat). Taylor may not have initiated the affair, but Taylor knew what the score was, and went along with it.

However, Taylor’s “evil” rating goes down if he/she was really pressured or coerced into doing it and succumbed during a weak moment (and almost immediately regretted it). But if, for instance, Taylor sleeps with Jordan several times and has no hesitation or remorse, I’d say Taylor’s evil rating is almost equal with Jordan’s.

29

Yeah, for those wondering which is which, I Googled for “androgynous names” and selected names that I knew to be in use by actual people of both genders. I found it interesting that everyone who assumed a gender for our characters decided that the cheating spouse was the husband.

Who’s the guy? IMHO, the question is perfectly valid if there’s no guy involved at all. In fact, that brings up an interesting circumstance: if Jordan and Taylor are the same sex, and Pat is of opposite gender, do Jordan and Taylor move down the evil scale if Jordan’s true sexual preference is being explored/discovered? I’m not sure I’d move them down unless Jordan had informed Pat about possible confusion regarding sexual orientation.

An interesting point in the “slut” vs. “stud” discussion. In my experience what Nightime said is pretty accurate. YMMV.

I’m a part of society, but as a never-been-married single male, I don’t recall taking any such vow. I can stand in a church and vow all I want to help elderly people cross the street and insist that I should be helped similarly when I’m elderly, but that doesn’t obligate anyone to actually help me cross the street when I get old.

Don’t get me wrong – I’m not the type of guy to go prowling for married chicks. However, there seem to be quite a few people chiming in here that don’t believe in the concept of marriage at all. How can a claim be made that unmarried society has a vow related to guarding the fidelity of marriage?

30

Ahh, benefitting by causing pain to another. That’s the first argument that makes me actually think about raising Taylor’s base evil rating.

Of course, that raised the question – if Taylor doesn’t actually benefit (Jordan’s a crappy lover), does the evil rating go down? :wink:

  • for the humorously-challenged: Duh! I know that the intent to benefit from another’s pain is the actual sin, not the actual benefit.
31

I don’t really see it being just about “guarding the fidelity of marriage,” I see it as not knowingly messing up someone else’s “setup” or someone else’s “contract.”

To put it another way, let’s say you want to buy a car, and you find some guy who will sell you a car. But he admits that he committed the car to someone else—that he promised that he’d sell the car to someone else, and this other person is really, really really counting on that car. If they don’t get that car, they are going to be really upset about it for a variety of reasons.

Most of us wouldn’t want to get in the middle of that. We wouldn’t want to knowingly cause the other person that kind of hurt and distress. We’d figure that there are plenty of other cars out there, why not go find one that doesn’t have such baggage attached to it? Why be partially responsible for this other person being so upset?

And while it is true that the guy who wants to betray the person that he promised the car to will eventually find somebody else to buy the car, it doesn’t mean that the other willing person is not responsible for their part in it. Because they know how their actions (buying the car) will affect the other person. And they know how crappy it can feel to have someone else break a promise they made to you. And most people wouldn’t want to be party to that whole mess. They wouldn’t feel right being the one that partially causes this other person to be so upset and hurt by the betrayal.

32

I think everyone but AHunter3 is being too hard on Jordan, but that Priam’s logic is closer to correct. (Even if he does use plural pronouns for individuals! :wink: ). I’m thinking this way
10 = Hitler
9 = Mussolini
8 = Nixon
7 = Jordan
6 = Liz Taylor (people who marry someone who loves them, but they don’t love)
5 = Taylor
…
0 = Pat

AHunter3, I find your logic unsatisfactory. This act is wrong. First, Jordan betrays Pat’s trust, and lies (by truth omission) in not revealing a serious mistake. Jordan also risks Pat’s health, without Pat’s permission, and Taylors and her own with consent. (“Safe sex” still has risks, condom or no.) Taylor is guilty of the same acts, but less culpable, because the “spouse” is not as real a person to him - unless Taylor knows Pat. Who pays for these errors? Pat might, but certainly Jordan and Taylor. No one commits these acts without ramifications. There is a reason all surviving ancient philosophies and religions oppose such actions. The guilty parties are not happy. (Even the ancient pagan festivals like Beldane (beldine?) were done with mutual understanding that wild revelry was part of the act.)

On the which gender catches the most crap, perhaps each gender thinks it bears the brunt. In the 50’s stereotype, men “couldn’t help themselves” and the “homewrecking” woman was at fault. (The Athenians had this the other way around, probably because the women were bored out of their minds.) The current stereotype is that men are more prone to infidelity than women. In my crowd, a married man that sleeps around is not a stud. He is an a$$hole. Married women get the b word. A single man might be called a stud, I suppose. But I’ve never heard it used that way.

33

Assuming that both spouses had vowed to a monogamous marriage…

Pat - 0

Jordan - 9
By cheating on his/her spouse, Jordan is betraying trust Pat’s trust at the most basic level. Jordan is breaking his marriage vows, deceiving his spouse, and potentially exposing his spouse to disease. Jordan is pond scum.

Taylor - 6
Others have used this analogy, and I think it’s a good one: Taylor is like the accessory to a crime. Not as bad as the one who pulls the trigger, but certainly culpable. Taylor knows that his/her actions could have devestating consequences for Pat and any children that Pat and Jordan might have. Taylor is helping Jordan break a very serious promise. Personally, I would have a very difficult time respecting or befriending someone who knowingly has sex with a married person–always assuming that the spouses have vowed monogamy. Taylor seems to have very little problem with the idea of betrayal. I couldn’t trust someone like that.

34

Amen.

Also, to say that as long as Pat doesn’t know, no harm’s been done is ludicrous and slimey. [voice of experience] Their marriage will probably suffer anyway. S/he just won’t know why. The loss of intimacy caused by her spouse’s (unbeknownst to her) guilt over his betrayal (assuming he has at least one decent bone in his body will probably eat away at their marriage. [/voice of experience]

Sad.

35

Hey! I think I’ve come up with another factor that would boost Taylor’s evilness factor: children.

If there are children involved, s/he is more evil because we’re not talking just about the lives of consenting adults. Granted, they might not be Taylor’s children but the risk of creating havoc in their young lives is too great.

And I’ve read (too lazy to remember where) that according to opinion polls, the spouse who cheats on a pregnant spouse are viewed as the absolute worst. I have to agree. Cheating on a pg. spouse is so wrong because of the children involved (this goes for pg. spouses who cheat).

36

What I object to here is the casual throwing-around of the word “evil.” Sure, there are degrees of wrongness and irresponsibility, and obviously it’s not unusual for people to do things that they know are wrong. But I don’t think I’d use the word “evil” here. I mean, a dictator or a terrorst is evil; so is a rapist or child molester. Someone who scams the elderly or deliberately shakes a baby is evil, so is someone who swindles people out of their retirement money. But extramarital sex? As wrong as it may be (depending on the circumstances), I’d never characterize it as “evil.”

37

Assuming Taylor is a complete stranger, I really don’t understand the idea of him bearing any responsibility whatsoever for Jordan keeping or breaking his/her wedding vows. What if Pat and Jordan weren’t married but were in a long-term relationship, would Taylor get the same score for having sex with Jordan as if they were married? If not, why not?

To me, Jordan trying to jump Taylor is like a vegetarian trying to order a hamburger. Sure, it would be nice if the guy selling burgers took the time to get some background info and tried to help the vegetarian resist temptation, but if he doesn’t he’s not a bad guy. There can be factors that would, if not justify, at least explain why a married person would decide to cheat (e.g. abuse, cheating by spouse, etc.) A single guy in a bar shouldn’t have to run a background check to find out if having sex with the girl trying to pick him up is going to hurt someone else’s feelings, and whether or not that’s fair.

When you commit to someone else, whether dating or married, it’s not the rest of the world’s responsibility not to have sex with your partner, it’s your partner’s responsibility not to have sex with the rest of the world.

38

I tend to agree with Panache45 here. I just can’t see Jordan as close to the blackest of imaginable souls.

I’d give Jordan a 3 to 4 depending on the level of deceit.

Taylor gets a 1 to 3 depending on Taylor’s previous relation to Pat/Jordan.

Pat gets a 0 to 1 depending on alienation of affection type stuff.

39

Innocent until proven guilty. Ever heard?

40

It’s not the affair that would have ended the marriage, it’s the fact that the marriage wasn’t satisfying enough to both partners to maintain its course in the first place.

You’re blaming the symptoms (cheating) for causing the pathology (unsatisfying relationship). That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.