Infidelity - who's evil?

In My Humble Opinion
1

The other night a relatively simple situation in a bar ending up developing into quite the heated debate over how much of the responsibility the “home-wrecker” has in an instance of infidelity. I thought I’d test the waters here and see what the Teeming Millions thought.

Pat and Jordan have been happily married for 5 years. Then one night, Jordan meets Taylor, a single stranger. During conversation, Taylor learns that Jordan is married. Nevertheless, at the end of the evening Jordan invites Taylor for a roll in the hay, and the two head off for a hotel together. It’s a one-time affair, and Pat and Jordan go on with their marriage, with Pat never learning about Taylor.

On a scale of 1 (just a tad naughty) to 10 (hellspawn), how evil are each of Pat, Jordan, and Taylor?

What kind of circumstances affect the evilness ratings? What if Jordan and/or Taylor is drunk? What if Pat is abusive (mentally, physically, or both) to Jordan, and Taylor knows this? What if Taylor is friends with Pat? What if Jordan and Taylor continue to have a relationship? What if Jordan has cheated before?

My answers:
Pat - 0 (obviously, Pat didn’t do anything wrong)
Jordan - 9 (can’t go to 10, 'cause there has to be room to go “more evil” if Jordan misleads Taylor as well as Pat)
Taylor - 2 (somewhat naughty for engaging in an act that could hurt someone’s feelings, but Taylor isn’t breaking any vows, and is totally replaceable in this situation. In fact, once Jordan invites Taylor for a roll in the hay, the harm’s pretty much been done, whether Taylor accepts or not)

As far as circumstances that change the ratings – being drunk doesn’t change anybodies rating, but blaming an indiscration on drunkenness boosts you up an evil point.

Pat’s evil rating can go up by being an abusive spouse, by having prior affairs, or in any other way helping to drive Jordan to cheat.

Jordan’s evil rating can go up by misleading Taylor (not informing Taylor of Jordan’s marital status, or misrepresenting by saying a divorce is in the works, Pat is abusive, etc.) or by being a habitual cheater rather than a 1-time cheater. Jordan’s rating can go down slightly if Pat’s goes up.

Taylor’s evil rating can go up if Taylor habitually seduces married partners, or if Taylor is a friend of Pat’s. Taylor can also gain evilness by trying to pursue an affair when Jordan tries to cut it off. Taylor’s rating goes way up if specifically trying to seduce Jordan as some type of personal vendetta versus Pat. Taylor’s evil rating goes down if Jordan misleads Taylor, or if Pat is such a horrible mate that Jordan is better off heading towards divorce.

IMHO, unless some form of rape is involved, Taylor’s evil rating can never go above about half of what Jordan’s evil rating is.

Oh, and anybody who is male in this situation, also gets +1 evilness, since everybody knows us men are always at fault when there’s infidelity involved. :wink:

I was surprised that most of my bar buddies disagreed with me. Many felt that Taylor would be just as evil as, if not more evil than, Jordan. That just doesn’t make sense to me.

What do you think?

2

I thought all three were male.

3

Some people have a moral code that says “don’t have an affair with a married person.” Some people don’t.

Before I met Mrs. Kunilou there was a married woman at my workplace who was obviously making a heavy play for me. The women I worked with (I was the only man in my department) were evenly split – half of them saying going after the woman would be helping her cheat on her husband, the other half saying I wasn’t responsible for another person’s marriage.

Having just ended a marriage where my spouse admitted she had cheated, I was in no mood to be any part of a triangle. A few months later I heard that the woman admitted to friends she had been going through a rough period in her marriage but that she and her husband were finally working things out.

All I can say is that if I had taken even a small role in doing something that would have damaged their marriage (even more), I never would have forgiven myself.

I guess I’d give Taylor more than a 2, but not as much as Jordan.

4

Telling me you don’t like my haircut would “hurt my feelings.” Sleeping with my husband would be…a bit more serious than that.

I think you are cutting Taylor too much slack.

5

As long as Pat never finds out, she never gets hurt.

As long as nobody gets hurt, no evil has been committed.

0 all around.

6

If you are a happy fan of barbecue and a friend of yours–known by you to have promised other members of the Ethical Vegetarian Initiative to never eat meat under any circumstances–indicates an interest in tagging along with you as you head out for the Brazilian Rodizio grill, are you morally obligated to refrain from delivering this backsliding vegetarian into carnivorous temptation?

I’d say Taylor gets a nice solid 0 on the evil scale – unless possibly Taylor ascribes to a system of values in which it is assumed that everyone will eventually and/or periodically take the Vegetarian Plunge, and when in that mode would blame others for tempting him/her.

More to the point, perhaps: I don’t do marriage or other variations on the exclusivity-possessiveness promise. I would never under any circumstances entangle myself in any of that. I have slept with married women. I have discovered (and it didn’t take me long) that for the sake of my own pride and dignity I will not have sex with women who have not stated to their husband or other partner that any promises of exclusivity are no longer binding. I think that has more to do with not wanting to have anything to do with deceitful people though. If she tells him and he says she has no right and no permission and rants on about how “we’re still married”, tough knuckles, guy, but it isn’t my problem, it isn’t my ethical worry, and they weren’t my promises.

7

Oh yeah, I agree infidelity is much more serious than a simple rude comment. As far as cutting Taylor too much slack, though – If I were comparing a rude comment to cheating, I would say that Jordan is saying that Pat’s hair sucks, and Taylor is just the phone Jordan is using. Is Taylor not deserving of some slack, in comparison to what Jordan is up to?

8

the circumstances have a lot do do with it. I personally would blame the person that’s married but cheats, the most. They’re the ones with vows to uphold. If you can’t uphold them, also fine, but tell your spouse. He/she is entitled to know. honesty and trust are very important (if not the most important) in a relationship.

In real life, I wouldn’t judge, as circumstances would determine who’s at fault and wo isn’t.
Hard to say from just a theoretical example.
In my experience; women are usually blamed more.
When a man sleeps around, he’s still considered a stud, if a woman does the same, she’s a slut.

sad, but true

9

Unless they have an open marriage.

Jordan = 9
Taylor = 6
Pat = 0

UNLESS, Pat is an evil harpie shrew who’s made Jordan’s life a sexless hell for most of the marriage, then she gets a 0.25-0.5.

STILL no reason to cheat after he promised, if it’s that bad, he should have either gone to counseling and worked it out, or LEFT the marriage, not broken his vows.

But I think that women in the marriage have, not blame, but a teensy bit of “responsibility” toward keeping their vows too.

And if they’ve stopped “loving, cherishing, etc etc”. Then IMO, THAT is breaking vows also, and imo, they have some (albeit tiny) part of the blame if their husband goes astray.

10

Or more to the point, the connotations of “stud” are not identical to those of “slut”, for indefensible and offensively ignorant reasons.

(I don’t like the connotations attached to either term, to be sure, but they definitely ought to be identical)

11

I don’t think Jordan’s potential blame here has anything to do with sex, really. It’s more a question of whether you can hold someone responsible for the potential harm they do to someone else, or are a willing participant in.

I see it as more analogous to not calling 911 if you see an accident, because you might be late for an appointment. Sure, someone else might call, or the accident might not be serious. It’s not your fault they ran into a ditch, and so on. It is still quite possible, though, that a seriously injured person might not get help as soon as they need it if you don’t make that call.

She didn’t make any marriage vows, and she doesn’t know what the state of the marriage is. However, by having casual sex with this guy, she is willingly participating in an act that has the real, foreseeable potential to seriously harm another person.

That rates higher than a “2,” in my opinion.

12

Sorry, I meant “Taylor,” not “Jordan.”

13

CanvasShoes said everything I wanted to say, but I’d raise Taylor’s evil rating to 7.

14

That, to me, is like the driver of a get-away car claiming that he has no ethical responsibility for a robbery. Hey, he didn’t go in there waving that gun around, he didn’t threaten to shoot that clerk, and he didn’t commit any robbery. All he did was drive a car, and what’s wrong with driving a car? Any crimes commited by his buddy, well, those just aren’t his problems or ethical worries.

Sure, you didn’t break those promises, but you were an accessory before the fact to an action that you knew would cause harm to someone else. Knowingly, deliberately, and callously hurting another is indeed your problem and your ethical worry. And in my book it puts you several notches above “a tad naughty,” just like driving a getaway car will get you more than, “Well, don’t do that anymore.”

15

I don’t know that it would cause harm to anyone else. If he (or she) has been forewarned that exclusivity is no longer the order of the day, the only one harming them is themselves for continuing to internalize a bunch of stupid notions about the right to possess someone else’s sexuality.

Get over it.

I have no objection if people want to make that kind of promise to each other, although I do think it’s silly and self-destructive and goes contrary to rather strongly voiced human tendencies, tendencies which I think are intrinsically good (divine, actually, at their core). But it isn’t my responsibility to conduct myself in a manner not of my own choosing just because some of you folks are unable to conduct yourself in the manner that you have chosen.

16

Well, I don’t think the verdict is in as to what intrinsic human tendencies happen to be. There are quite a number of people who feel just as strongly about the beauty and value of of a promise of sexual fidelity (given, not taken) as you feel about non-exclusivity. It is unfortunate that they don’t always marry each other.

I was responding on the assumption that the wife in this case has not been forewarned that the promises her husband made are not going to be honored.

17

What CanvasShoes said, but drop Taylor’s rating to a 3.

Is it wrong? Sure, on the same scale that it’s wrong simply because any sex outside of marriage is wrong, it’s a rule but not one most pay attention to anymore.

It might be rationalizing, but the argument that Taylor isn’t the one who’s married makes perfect sense to me. Jordan is cheating, Taylor’s not.

18

Well written OP, CrazyMonkey – I especially liked how you carefully wrote the whole thing to be gender neutral. (Although I kept thinking, “But, which one’s the guy??”)

My opinion:

Pat = 0 evilness:
Since we’re talking about this particular situation, Pat has done nothing wrong here. If he/she has been evil in the past then they’re overall evilness might be high, but they can’t be blamed for this. Two wrongs don’t make a right, etc.

Jordan = 10 evilness:
Jordan completely and fully violated the trust of Pat by breaking the (assumed) vow of monogamy and faithfulness.

Taylor = 0-10 evilness, depending on his/her relationship with Pat:
If Taylor is a stranger, then fucking Jordan is a non-evil act, in my opinion. It’s not his/her job to force other people to be monogamous – if someone offers to fuck him/her and he/she is interested, go for it.

If Taylor is a friend of Pat’s, then the sex is a betrayal of trust. How bad a betrayal depends on how close they are. Fucking a vague acquaintance’s spouse is not nearly as bad as fucking your best friend’s spouse. If they are really close friends, I’d say the betrayal can be just as bad as that of Jordan.

19

Yeah, it’s all about how the one who is cheated with knows the one who is being cheated on, and how the cheating goes down. Seduce the spouse of your friend? 10. Seduce someone you know is married, but you don’t know the other person? 4ish. Don’t seduce, but be a willing participant with, someone cheating on your friend? 8ish. Have sex with someone you know is married, but not the one who initiates it? 0-1. It’s not your responsibility to keep other people faithfull, but inducing someone to cheat is pretty slimy. It IS, however, your responsibility not to fuck over your friends.

20

I used to think this, but it isn’t true.

The fact is that most men place more value on a mate who doesn’t sleep around, and most women place more value on a mate who is experienced and attractive to other women.

Trust me, if women suddenly only wanted inexperienced partners, then “stud” would take on a very negative meaning.

And if men suddenly only wanted very experienced women, then “slut” would take on a very positive meaning.

If the connotations are based on what people truly want, then they are in fact reasonable, and not based on the ignorant reasons you think they are.