Having just posted a new thread in “Great Debates” about the alleged martial art powers of the incarcerated tax cheat John C. Kim reminded me of something. I went to one of his schools for about 6 months (many years ago) and snuck a peak at the test sheet for the various belts. At the bottom, (presumably the “final test”) it said:
Injure without touch
Does such a thing actually exist?
I think Kim is talking about moral injury. You know, hurting your opponents’ feelings – put-downs, making faces, criticism, etc.
If it does, and it didn’t mean emotional/psychological damage, that would be some spooky action at a distance.
Sorry I can’t help more, but without a more specific definition, I don’t think your question can be answered for certain.
(misuse of quote intentional)
Sure does. I had my very soul ripped out by a former girlfriend who cheated on me. While doing all the damage, she never laid a hand on me. She was touching someone else, though, so I guess that disqualifies it, huh?
Okay, I’ll stop being a smartass now.
The “injure without touch” thing seems to smack of telekinesis or something similar. I doubt it’s possible.
It would not surprise me to find some schools teaching people how to focus their ki (chi/ch/i/whatever) in such a way as to exert force without physical contact.
It would surprise me if they had documentable evidence of a repeatable ability to exert such force, particularly enough force to injure someone.
They may be able to develop a short, fast attack which goes so fast the average person can’t see the blow; the victim would seem to be hurt without his attacker having moved a muscle. I find this unlikely.
On a similar subject (timing, rather than attacking from a distance), Shotokan karate has several definitions for when a counterattack takes place. The beginning students first learn to counterattack after the opponent has attacked (japanese term, I believe would be go no go). The next step in response time is to counterattack while the opponent is attacking (go no sen). Next is after the opponent has physically committed himself to attacking (sen no sen). The fourth is after after the opponent has mentally committed himself to attacking (sen). Faster than this, you’re just attacking, not counter-attacking.
Tricky thing is, #3 and #4 look EXACTLY like you’re attacking first, not counterattacking, and only a trained martial artist would recognize the difference.
Ethilrist,
Shotokan was my discipline. Excellent description of counter attacks.
It might refer to getting your opponent to injure himself.
One instance comes to mind. At the beginning of Karate Kid Part II Mr Miyagi dodges a few punches and as a result the evil sensai punches car windows and cuts up his own hands.
Now, I am not a martial arts expert by any means, but isn’t there a form based on the Tao that has more to do with letting you opponent do most of the work? You on the other hand work towards using his energy and redirecting it.
JamesCarroll said:
Aikido certainly falls into that category.
This Site has some reasonable mpeg clips of aikido in action.
Since they are, in fact, videos, they serve to illustrate some rather dynamic things—but this may be misleading. Aikido is a very gentle art, not given to sharp movement (the practice of aikido does not include punches, kicks or any strikes with any part of the body)
Note in particular the first video clip (I’m sure you could find lots more on the web) which illustrates Aikido Founder O Sensei Morihei Ueshiba “throwing” an opponent without ever touching him. (The attacker “throws” himself onto the floor in response to the defender’s surprising movement of his (defender’s) hand near the attacker’s face. I think that’s as close to harming without touching as we’re going to find.
It’s surprising how much damage you can allow an opponent to do to him/herself by gently changing his/her balance just a wee bit.
Thank you, and Goodnight
Well, this is probably going to sound ridiculous to anyone who hasn’t seen it first hand, (I know I’d scoff) but I’ve been the “victim” of qigong techniques, and seen more advanced people take serious knocks without touching our sifu. I can’t explain it, but I think it’s something that warrants study, not derision. It’s possible that I could’ve been psyched out by the 350-pound bruiser, but since I experienced similar but distinctly different “forces” exerted upon me by advanced students. Believe it or not.
I choose “not”.
I’ve seen quite a bit of video of someone attempting to show this type of attack (without touching) on a skeptical victim, and nothing has ever happened. I’m willing to bet on the victim either reacting (conciously or unconciously) to the motion or contact is made and the victim doesn’t know it.
It has been studied somewhat, and there’s no evidence to support the idea of focused chi doing anything. Sorry to sound so closed-minded, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
And, of course, with a gun, I can injure without touching…but that’s probably not what you meant.
It almost sounds as though you are describing Dim Mak, a martial art I have heard of, read some about, but still don’t quite get.
Of course, I can injure without touch by ingesting unsalted dry-roasted peanuts. Don’t be afraid. I swore them off for the good of mankind. 
~~Baloo
Hi Soccerhooligan,
The injure without touch thing can safely be filed under the rest of the Chung Moo Doe / John C. Kim mythology. It was still on the test sheets back in '98, when I finally got smart and left.
There is a story you may have heard, which says that Kim dispatched a higher belt to kill Bruce Lee using the “Injure Without Touch” method. Apparently, the legendary Mr. Lee had been divulging Chung Moo Doe secrets (which he apparently “stole” from Kim).
As far as being able to injure someone without touching them, yes, that is possible. The martial art of Xingychuan (a relative of Baguazhang)uses focused Chi to uproot an opponent. I am learning the beginnings of this art in the form of “pushing hands”. In order for someone to reach the level where they would actually be able to uproot an opponent takes years.
None of the instructors in the CMD system have been training long enough to have reached this level. I attended several NLT’s while I was enrolled, and I never saw any of the National or Assistant National Instructors do anything even remotely noteworthy. There are intermediate students in my current Kung Fu school who would be more than a match for any CMD 2nd or 3rd degree.(At my school, it typically takes about 10 years to reach the equivalent of first degree. The intermediate students have been training 4 - 5 years.)Also, considering the nature of Kim’s background (particularly the lack of authennticity) I doubt very much that he has this ability either.
Proably the most famous practitioner of Xingychuan is B.K. Frantzis. I have seen him demonstrate this at one of his schools in Brookline, MA. He not only uprooted his opponent, but managed to lift him off of the grond by a few feet. B.K. Frantzis has a website where you can learn more about this art. There are also numerous articles “out there” on the web (I’m not sure if I spelled it exactly right).
Anyway, that should give you an idea or two. By the way, I have been enjoying your posts on the TMAN forum. A little intelligent commentary and debate makes for a nice changeof pace.
Mantis
This idea of projecting you chi is just silly. However, merely convincing gullible folk of such an ability should be no more difficult that convincing people of any number of equally preposterous supernatural abilities. Care to have your fortune told?
Enjoy your delusions, Mantis and space vampire, but I hope you are never in the position of having to use your “skills” to defend yourself against an uncooperative opponent.
Please demonstrate my ignorance by directing me to objective documentation of such techniques performed under controlled circumstances. If you do, I will gladly admit my error.
For a really devastating effect, combine Injure Without Touch with yogic flying for an aerial assault…
Seriously, you can…persuade…your opponent to hurt himself with the proper moves–assuming your opponent doesn’t know what he’s doing, or is angry (or drunk) beyond reason. (I’ve “given” a guy a black eye without touching him, simply by ducking out of the way and letting him run into a wall lamp.) However, as a student of arnis, I much prefer to simply clobber him with a nice, hard stick and be done with it. I’ve found the concept of ki to be useful as a metaphor–it sometimes helps in describing or learning a technique–but I have never seen any evidence of physical effects created by focussed ki.
On the subject of hitting people with sticks, I remember a Dan Inosanto seminar where he showed a series of variations on a really smooth, intricate disarm series, and summing up, “Of course these work a lot better if you’ve given your opponent a few good shots first.”
A very interesting subject. For future reference, so that I don’t get into any trouble, anyone wishing to debate about CMQ-CMD-OYD or John C. Kim should post
Here
Anyone wishing to offer proof, or wishing to debunk “injure without touch,” do so on this thread.
Thanks!
Inosanto’s good, and he tells it like it is. He was one of my (now former 
) instructor’s teachers. The demonstration you saw was probably from the same style I studied, Modern Arnis-Aikido, which blends aikido movements with stick-fighting. Some of the disarms are really beautiful–there’s a blur of motion, then you’re clobbering your opponent from behind with his own weapon. One part of our tests was demonstrating variations on counter/disarms against a wary opponent (who knew the same moves); they still work more often than not. Another part was evading multiple attackers, while stripping their weapons and throwing them out of the ring (or keeping them to use in the next disarm).
Interesting. I always associated “Modern Arnis” with Remy Presas, and til today I had never heard Dan described as doing aikido. Don’t recall him using the word any of the times I saw him, but who could hope to remember everything the man says, right? Also, I have definitely let my weapons work slip over the past year or so.
Who was your instructor?
My instructor was Doug Ford until he moved away. Remy Presas is the big name in the style, although his Modern Arnis style is stiffer and less aikido-like. The style I studied is kind of a weird bastard hybrid–I don’t know for sure who added the aikido influences. I’m not sure just what Doug studied with Dan (we never paid much attention to lineage), but it wasn’t arnis. It may just have been a long series of Dan’s seminars. Dan’s stick-fighting style is kali, which is very closely related to traditional arnis (sans aikido influences). Dan strikes me as a “whatever works” type, though–I wouldn’t be surprised to see him adopt moves from other styles. Or I could be completely wrong, and he was doing something else entirely. Could you describe the disarms in a little more detail? I might recognize them.