Just as an aside, you all realize that Bear_Nenno is hypothetically in Iraq on patrol, right?
So the hypothetical situation is indeed possible, contrary to some posters opinions.
In that case, that asnwers my question. He can hypotethically shoot the animal. Can he do it without getting a ton of hypotehical attention from hypotehical baddies?
Yes, I do, which is why I answered the way I did.
I’ve had to kill a few injured animals where I believed that the pain of transporting them to a vet for a blue needle was cruel. It is not easy to seperate the neck the first time you try - most folks are too tentative. I assumed that “shots fired” would cause more problems for everybody. Hence, crush the skull, and quickly.
If this situation is not hypothetical, Bear_Nenno, I am sorry for you. It sucks.
And I hope it’s literally a hypothetical kitten. I didn’t know the OP’s context until the bottom of the thread, but it doesn’t change my response. Any attempt to project the animals thoughts or desires is pointless. Besides, as an ER nurse, I go against the desires of children, demeted geriatrics and head trauma pts on a regular basis because of my larger perspective. I see 2 choices
1 “refuse to play” I can’t know what’s right, what the future brings, it’s as if I never entered the house.
2 Project yourself into the situation; knowing what I know would I want to hold out for a miracle, or would I want the coup de grace,
YMMV
Am I being wooshed here?
I also WTFed upon reading that.
Unlikely. Otherwise wouldn’t there be a hypothetical superior officer that this question should be directed to instead? Or is it common military practice to direct questions about appropriate patrol conduct to random strangers on the internet? Taking time out to mercy-kill random animals while patrolling abandoned buildings in Iraq doesn’t sound like a particularly good idea. Just my hypothetical two cents, of course.
In all seriousness, if I didn’t know how to kill the animal painlessly, I’d just leave it alone.
Unless it’s orange. Then you move to Plan B.
The scenario in the OP was in fact a real situation. The two options–leave it or kill–were truly the only conceivable options. Obviously there are no humane society or animal shelters around. There is a “no mascots” rule. Any unit or soldier possessing any non-issued animal will be punished severely. (Rabies and hygiene risks. They especially don’t want a stray animal infecting or harming a military working dog) So there is no transporting the animal anywhere.
lol. Oh, it is a kitten. Mercy killings on people are not allowed. Not even on the enemy.
You could. But it’s actually slightly more of a hassle to go that route. Any round fired that’s not at the enemy needs to get called up on the radio, so your buddies in the vicinity don’t think you’re shooting at a bad guy, or think someone’s shooting at them. If the round is from your rifle, there will be extra explaning to do. If the round is from a shotgun, it’s no big thing. Just say “shotgun” over the radio. A shotgun would turn the poor kiddie into a fine mist before it even heard the blast. But your shotgun is on the truck. The shotgun is mainly used for opening locks. You just brought the bolt cutters, instead. And bolt cutters aren’t going to cut it for this job. (ha ha. pun intended)
If you choose to kill it, your options are limited. The quickest, most painless methods would be:
Crush the head with your boot.
Rip his head off with your hands.
Smash his head with the hammer you just found.
Or you could just leave it suffer and move out.
Is mercy killing really okay because it’s an animal and not a person? Is mercy killing every okay? Is it better than suffering? Are you causing more suffering by allowing the animal to live?
Is existing in pain better than not existing at all?
Is it absolutely true that a native non combatant will not care for the animal?
I would have a hard time killing the kitten, but if I were completely convinced that the rest of its life would be filled with overbearing suffering, I would snap its neck like a twig. I honestly do not see why this is any different morally than euthanizing a pet. I had to do that recently. Of course, a vet did it for me, but the decision was mine. It was very traumatic for me; surprisingly so. But, the alternative was worse. He was in pain. Every breath was labored. He could barely eat. He spent much of his time dry retching. He was a wonderful companion, and the thought of the times we spent together even now brings tears to my eyes. But I could not let him suffer any more.
That would be a ‘joke’, a la Jack Handey. But I guess if I have to explain it, it wasn’t a very good one.
Why would I direct it at him?
- I don’t need his permission to kill it.
- I don’t really care about his opinion WRT morality.
- He’s not looking at the animal, so how could he make a better informed decision than I can.
- What a waste of time that would be.
I’m not going to spend any second longer in that house than I would have if there was no kitten. I’m not going to make any extra radio calls, not going to call someone for a second opinion, not going to waste time or have someone hold my hand…
I’ve got about 15 minutes before we’re ready to move on. I’ve got a soldier with a hammer in his hand, waiting for me to tell him yes or no.
I made a decision. I don’t need help making decisions.
I just thought it would make a good GD topic. This is irrelevant to what is appropriate patrol conduct. Either action would have been appropriate patrol conduct. I’m the one there. There are no LOW, ROE or regulations at play. I could make either decision. Neither is inappropriate. One, however is morally better than the other. Hence, the debate.
Given the location, it would be very unlikely, but not impossible that someone would come upon the kitten or that it would eventually wander into someone’s yard. But even if the people did care to help this stray, they wouldn’t be able to do much more than feed it. And this injury was not going to go away or heal itself with leftovers and kitchen scraps. The kitten needed professional medical attention. Antibiotics, maybe an amputation.
A quick death is certainly more merciful that a prolonged painful one, and it seems to me that those were the options here.
Fair enough. I just thought there might be some practical objection to killing sick animals on patrol. If not, that’s fine too. It’s great that you’ve got that amount of latitude to work with. For an ostensibly hypothetical debate question, this doesn’t seem as though it is actually very hypothetical after all.
As others have suggested, similar decisions are made every day by pet owners whose animals are diagnosed as terminally ill. They have to decide whether their pet’s quality of life justifies the release of euthanasia, and it’s probably never an easy choice.
I think that if you can’t say for certain whether the animal truly is destined for endless suffering, and you have no way of killing the animal painlessly, I think it’s probably best to leave it be. That situation is too full of uncertainties for me to decide on attempting euthanasia. Sure, the kitten’s leg may be hanging off, but animals do manage to get around after surviving such injuries.
I guess if I were absolutely convinced that the critter would spend the rest of its short life in agony, I might feel obliged to spare it that future, probably by cervical dislocation, or some other quick method.
I can only recall one time when I killed an animal to end its suffering. It was a snake that had been run over and its guts were leaking out of the body and it was flailing all around obviously in a lot of pain. I grabbed a rock and crushed the head and tried to kill it as fast as possible.
Especially if the injured animal you’re dealing with is a shark.
A bit of a highjack (or to highjack a highjack), but I had a similar circumstance where I believed that a dog should be euthanized, but found no one willing to do it for a very long time.
There was an emaciated, injured, flea-ridden, diseased, sick dog that lived in the employee parking lot where I worked. He had been hit by cars more than once and had never received medical attention. He was of indeterminate breed and had huge patches of missing fur. What remained was thin and matted. Sometimes he was lethargic and couldn’t move when an employee was leaving the parking lot - I think that they ‘nudged’ the dog with their cars, further injuring him. (Crap - this happened 8 years ago and I still cry.)
This was in Malaysia where I worked for a US company. A very moderate form of Islam is the official religion. Muslims believe that dogs are ‘unclean’ and will not attend to them no matter what the dog’s condition. The Buddhists at the plant (the majority) occasionally provided the dog with food but that was the extent of their interest. I began to feed him daily but didn’t notice a change in his health. He just appeared to get weaker.
I called the local SPCA but they wouldn’t even discuss euthanasia and stated that they didn’t have a facility to care for the dog and couldn’t remove him. Went to the plant manager who suggested that I call the police department. Our local PD was staffed entirely by Malay Muslims, none of whom were interested in doing anything with the dog; however, they would provide me with a pistol if I was willing to take care of the dog myself under their watch - I would also have to arrange for its removal and disposal. Umm, I don’t think so. I don’t think I’d be capable of shooting an animal that I’d grown to care about and was a bit wary of being a foreigner holding a pistol in a country that could jail me forever for having a firearm, no matter how it was obtained. Not only that, but what were the logistics of removing and disposing of the dog once he’d been shot?
A few months after I began whining about him, a cow-orker took me aside to say that she’d discussed it with her Chinese-Malay vet and that the matter would be handled. She didn’t invite questioning.
A few days later I noticed that the dog was gone - no one ever mentioned his whereabouts.
Here are a few cites if anyone needs them:
This site turned out to be extremely interesting, explaining that cruelty is not a practice of Islam although contact with dogs is immoral. A thoughtful article.
I’m surprised the kitten can’t at least be taken to the outside so others can see it after you’re gone - but then I guess on patrol you need both hands free/carrying weapon.
Don’t US Soldiers carry knives anymore? Slitting the throat would be, IMO, quicker and more merciful than stomping the head in (IME, skulls are hard - even cat skulls). Just plain ripping the head off in one smooth motion would have the same effect, but I don’t know if I have the strength to do it in one go. Key thing - stop blood to brain ASAP. I think with the stomping or hammering, bits of brain may live on for a little while - who wants that?
FTR, I have had to kill an injured animal in the bush before more than once(similar to pool’s example). Thankfully, always have machete…monitor lizards still thrash around a lot without their heads and intestines! Tortoises, not so much.
After having read this, and the rest of the thread, I’d probably kill it, if I could bring myself to it, and if I was sure that I could give it a quick clean kill. I have taken sick/mortally injured animals in for my vet to put them down. I don’t know if I could bring myself to do it. I hope I’d be able to, for the animal’s sake, because in those circumstances, I really doubt that it could survive.