Inner and Outer Mongolia

  1. Whatever became of Inner Mongolia and Outer Mongolia?
    I guess China just completely absorbed Tibet, but 2.is there still a Manchuria or Manchukuo? 3.Is it communist? Wasn’t the last dynasty of China a Manchu dynasty? Upper and Lower on a country always refer to a river, I guess, but 4.what do Inner and Outer refer to? I also remember a Lower Slobovia, which I think was near Sinkiang. Finally,5. is there any difference between Mongolians and Manchurians and 6.where do the Tartars come in that changed their name later on to Tatars?

Inner Mongolia is a province of China. Outer Mongolia (or just Mongolia ) is an independent country that used to have ties with the old USSR , capital Ulan Bator.

don willard: Geez, louise - that’s a lot of questions for such a short post :smiley: .

In order: 1.) Has been answered. The separation occurred during the breakdown in China after the Japanese invasion. All of Mongolia had before that been under Chinese suzerainty since the 17th century when the Khalka ( Eastern ) Mongols had more or less peacefully accepted Manchu rule.

2 and 3.) Yes - Manchuria is now the Northeastern region of China - very roughly the area above Korea. Yes, it has been communist since the KMT were expelled post-WW II. Yes, the Manchus ( Qing or Ch’ing dynasty ) ruled China from ~1644 to the early twentieth century. However the Manchus have long since been absorbed the greater Chinese population and are no longer Manchurian in the proper sense ( more in a sec ).

4.)In this context - Inner = closer to China. Outer = more distant from China.

5.) Yes - Although there were some very significant cultural similarities, Mongols spoke/speak an Altaic language, Manchus a Tungusic language. But most of the Manchus proper were absorbed as I’ve said, and Manchuria has been “sinicized” for centuries now.

6.) The Tatars were a tribe of Mongols that were politically aligned against Chinghis Khan. They were largely stamped out as an independent people by him, but the name persisted. It became conflated somewhat with the word “Tartar”, which was given to the Mongols because Europeans thought they were the horde released from Tarterus to plague mankind. So, the Crimean “Tartars” had little in common with historical “Tatars”. But they may have preferred that spelling as an apellation because it was more linguistically apt than the European name they had been saddled with.

  • Tamerlane

#1 has been answered, so on we go:

  1. Politically there is no Manchuria, it’s been carved into several provinces of China. So

  2. It’s communist, inasmuch as China itself is still communist. The last dynasty of China was indeed Manchurian, lasting a couple hundred years IIRC. Today Manchurians have been absorbed culturally and linguistically into China. The extent to which they hang on to their own identity I don’t know.

  3. I believe “inner” and “outer” refer to proximity to China. It is The Middle Kingdom, after all.

  4. Mongolians and Manchurians are related, though not closely. They speak (distantly) related languages.

  5. The Tartars didn’t change their name–those are just two different names that outsiders called them. They were a Turkic group that lived near the Mongols and joined Genghis Khan’s army when he invaded China. After that, they don’t figure much in China but continued to be important in Russia, where they are now an official minority with their own autonomous region.

Crap, Tamerlane–I shoulda known you’d come in ahead of me! But at least we agree. :slight_smile:

Hey, I’ve never been anywhere near her Mongolia. :wink:

Tibet could also have been divided as Inner and Outer. In Tournament of Shadows, the authors note (brackets mine)

Helpful link for the OP: Encyclopedia Britannica Online.

As far as I know, there are still in Summit County.

http://www.skimaps.com/Archive/images/ski/vail_back.jpg

I met a Chinese guy who was born in Manchuria. He says that the Manchus look the same as Chinese. You can’t tell them apart. They have both Manchu and Chinese names and can use either.

Mongolians look different from Chinese.

Major Feelgood: Well, they mostly are all Chinese now, or as good as :slight_smile: .

The Qing dynasty made some attempts early on to limit Manchuria for the Manchu people, for the sake of haing a loyal military bastion to fall back on. But those limitations were ineffective almost from the beginning, and Qing dynasty itself quickly sinicized. By the late 18th century, when China’s population had essentially quadrupled ( or possibly doubled, I forget if the late Ming had 100 or 200 million - I know by the mature Qing period it was well over 400 million ) from what it was a century earlier it is probably safe to say that Manchuria was more “Han Chinese” than some of the southern provinces in China that had ( and to some extent still have ) persistent ethnic minorities.

  • Tamerlane

Contributor DSYoungEsq complained that this string was being utilized as an encyclopedia. However, the encyclopedia doesn’t answer specific questions.AND it doesn’t usually answer certain types of questions. Like onetime I wanted to know if Louis XVIII was the last Louis of France. Now that isn’t in the encyclopedia or if it is it would take months of research. Encyclopedias are interested in elaborate explanations of terrain, for instance, when you look up France. “The coastal plains go on and on until you get to the sea on one side and the mountains on the other, or the foothills in between that only go back to the Eocene. However, there are some dolomite rocks resting upon the limestone that will crumble in two thousand more years. On the central plateau the climate is warm in the wummer and cool in the winter with an average temperature of…”
I found out from asking on a thread inthis formum the immediate answer to whether Louis XVIII was the last Louis king of France or whether there was a Louis XIX. And when I get around to it, I am going to try to find out why Charles X took the name he did, what with so many Louises in the background.

Tamerlane, Tungusic languages are Altaic. There are three divisions of Altaic: Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic.

The name Tartar with the extra r is never correct. It is a racist ethnic slur coined by Europeans. The only correct form is Tatar. The origin of the name was already discussed in this thread.

Note that the both the Volga Tatars and the Crimean Tatars are not Mongols at all, but Turkic peoples.

Jomo Mojo: Mea Culpa :slight_smile: - You’re quite right and I actually knew that ( really! I did! :smiley: ), don’t know quite why I put it that way. Brain fart, I guess. Thanks for correcting me :slight_smile: .

You’re also quite correct about the fact that the people labeled as Tatar today are largely turkic, although as you ( or someone in that thread ) pointed out there was some small ( very small ) admixing with the Mongols ( or at least a Turco-Mongol mix ) proper ( I think Batu and the Jochids were collectively assigned 4,000 troops from the Imperial army as part of their/his appanage and I would imagine that given the “personal bodyguard” nature of those troops, they likely were from one of the central tribes ).

  • Tamerlane

I thought it was about belly buttons :wink:

Just to add a few factoids. IIRC and circa the late 80’s, but at that time

Ethnic Manchurians made up less than 3% of the population of Manchuria, or what is now called the North Eastern Provinces (dongbei san sheng). There are very few Manchurians that practice their traditional culture and the language is virtually dead

Ethnic Mongolians comprise less than 20% of the population of Inner Mongolia. However, the Mongolian culture, language and Mongolian buddhist religion are still alive. A large percent of Mongolians speak Mongolian as a native language and may or may not speak Mandarin Chinese.

I am sure the Poster was just joshing, but I’ll bite anyway.

Lower Slobovia – this has always sounded as if it should be in Eastern Europe, rather than near China – existed only in the cartoons of Al Capp, creator of Li’l Abner (please forgive if I placed the apostrophe in the wrong place).

Lower Slobovia was on the other side of our planet from Dogpatch.

GoldenGael is right about Lower Slobovia. The people lived in snow and as I remember it, they didn’t have any houses they were so poor. They are always digging their way out and speaking in a Russian accent. As it turns out, there were people in the western part of the Russian Empire, for instance maybe the 18th-century, who were a mixture of various ethnic groups that sometimes are referred to under a name I won’t mention because there might be descendants of theirs that would think they were being slurred, but anyway, these people had a cultural practice of constantly robbing each other, so they lived in holes dug into the ground and had to move constantly to different holes because their whereabouts would become known. They had no possessions, at least most of the time, because of the robbery. This is mentioned in DEAD SOULS or in another work by Gogol as a historical fact someone tells in a story, and it is probably true. As another hijack, I recall that the origin of high heeled shoes was Scotland, where every afternoon at a certain hour an official would yell, “Gardey-Loo!!!” and everybody would throw out the garbage into the streets and passers-by had to watch out. This was also done in England and probably everywhere in Europe. Those who could afford it wore high shoes, and this led to women wearing them, but it was originally to keep off the garbage. (I am Scottish)