It’s not that I can’t, it’s just that your premises are ludicrous enough that they can be dismissed out of hand* by looking out of my window*.
As already stated above, honour killings are not an Islamic but a cultural tradition - one that Europe shared for a long, long time. Here in France we used to call them “crimes of passion”. Some judges still go easy on them because, well, the bitch did step out didn’t she ? (those are not my views, just to be clear)
The “forced” bit is a matter of considerable debate. The overwhelming majority of Muslim women are more than OK with it. Whether they’re right to be is a different debate I suppose.
Polygyny is *cruel *now ? How so ? Please be specific.
There’s also, again, the matter of “forced”. If you asked my girlfriend, “I get to **not **fuck him most of the time, and get help around the house ? Where do I sign ?!” would probably be the answer.
So, let me get this straight as I can : you’re not a Christian. But you still believe a throwaway line from the Bible is an argument. Because… ?
I also strongly doubt you’ve read a single line of the Koran, so your last sentence is worth less than a fart.
So Muslim women are “more than OK” with wearing burkas/abayas. Not sure how you know this, but let’s think about it. Would you like to be swathed head to toe in heavy overclothes (with your normal street clothes below them for an extra layer) in a hot desert climate? Would you like to be told you can’t drive or vote because you don’t have the “correct” genitalia? I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t, and I’m pretty sure they don’t either.
But you’ll never get it–will you? Because you’re a man and therefore you don’t have to care about it, so you don’t. And you don’t want to get it–too inconvenient, I suppose.
Oh and I’m sorry your GF doesn’t like fucking you–but that doesn’t mean most women would be happy sharing their husband with other women.
Cheerio, baby, and work on your sexual skills, Mkay?
Do you understand that not all Muslims live in Saudi Arabia?
This is a stupid claim. Based on what you were trying to claim, it would be 24.999999999999…%, but it is still a silly and pointless remark.
This is stupid on multiple levels. One definition of terrorism indicates that terrorism is a tool/weapon employed against an existing power structure.
However, the word has been used to identify actions by a government against its own people or against the people of another nation for many years. Claiming that the first definition precludes the second definition has no basis in fact or usage.
(And, of course, Europe has been far more secular than Christian for a number of years, so you are attempting to appeal to a notion of hatred that is not even valid.)
This is factually wrong. The overwhelming number of Muslims in Europe were invited to Europe by the Europeans to supply labor that the Europeans needed for their economies. A very large number of those Muslims have made the effort to become naturalized citizens in those countries, (even in countries that have fairly difficult naturalization laws), and many of the Muslims in Europe are natural citizens, born there, the children or grandchildren of earlier immigrants.
As to “easily” kicking out people who are citizens of a nation and who provide a significant amount of labor to keep the economy going: that is just dumb.
Your statement is rather like the “go back to Africa” taunts of racists in the U.S. against people whose great-great-grandparents were forcibly imported to North America. So your comment displays a nasty brand of hatred that is based claims that are wrong.
The willful ignorance and hatred of fucking Nazi pieces of shit never fails to depress me. That website really can have no other description.
We are fighting ignorance on The Straight Dope; you are promoting it. A burqa, (the only bit of clothing that covers the entire body), is not made of heavy cloth, but light cloth and the amount of clothing worn beneath it is the choice of the wearer. A loose robe that does not cling to the body is actually cooler to wear than the typical Western clothing. This is why so many men of that region wear the kandura/ jalabiyyah/dishdasha/thawb, the long robe-like garment that covers the entire body, loosely. It is why many men in India wear the dhoti and why the Hawaiian shirt is popular in those islands and similar locations.
If you want to complain about the burqa, at least don’t include errors in your claims.
You know that not only do not all Muslim women live in Saudi Arabia, a relatively small percentage of them do, right?
Even in Chesler’s deliberately cherry-picked study (it used reports in English-language media to try to document the incidence of honor murdersworldwide, and focused only on immigrants to the West and residents of “Muslim countries” - of course it concluded that most honor murders were carried out by Muslims as a result, though even she is forced to admit that it’s not an exclusively Muslim cultural practice). Chesler is trying to support a predetermined conclusion - that’s why her bullshit "study was published in Daniel Pipes’ Muslim-hating rag, rather than an actual peer-reviewed journal.
Chesler’s focus is not on the problem of honor murders, but in finding ways to blame Muslims for honor murders. That’s why she entirely glossed over the Hindu honor murders endemic in India in her “study”. On the few occasions she’s actually been forced to acknowledge the existence of widespread non-Muslim honor murders, she’s alternated between “Hindu honor murders are different from Muslim honor murders!” and “Hindus only carry out honor murders because they were influenced by Muslim honor murders!”
Actually, there’s almost a direct parallel to the Christian “men are in charge but should honor women” thing: “And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them.” (Q2:228, Pickthall translation)
What scientific consensus? If you’re talking about the PDF you linked from that website full of crackpot and neo-Nazi (seriously…check out their library folder on “Jews” if you have a strong enough stomach) nonsense, you might want to check this out.
Hmm, who to believe, the anti-Muslim bigot who claims that Muslim feminists don’t exist, or the actual existing Muslim feminists. Choices, choices…
Wait, what?!
Well, you have certainly proven the point that you are utterly clueless that there is a difference between the roughly 14 million women in Saudi Arabia and the roughly 800 million Muslim women in the rest of the world. Of the claims you made for “Christian women” Muslim women in Iran, one of the worst theocracies in the world, can go outside :rolleyes:, vote, work, and drive and none of the women in Iran are required, by law, to wear the burqa, (which, as noted above, are more comfortable that they were ludicrously described).
It should also be noted that the Qu’ran does not promote beating one’s wife, but puts limits on it–something that the Christian scriptures do not do, allowing idiot Christian judges to invent false meaning s for the phrase “rule of thumb.”)
Your clitorectomy claim is absolutely false. It is not a religious practice, but a cultural one, and in the regions of the world where it is practiced, Christians do it as much as Muslims and Animists.
Honor killings occur in Christian and Hindu lands and they do not occur in all Muslim lands, so that is one more error to add to your growing list of things that you have posted that are not accurate.
So, you got one sort of correct: Islam does accept polygyny, although in a culture where it is universally practiced, it is questionable as to whether it is hurtful.
It is enough to refute his many errors.
Let’s refrain from calling names in Great Debates.
[ /Moderating ]
You are close. I am not kidding you; I am laughing at you.
I like how you incoherently scream “Nazi” to suppress evidence you don’t like. I thought this board held themselves to a standard of refuting viewpoints on the basis of facts instead of ideology.Here, is this a better cite?
It’s just math buddy. Natural events are uniformly distributed. Enlightenment values are intrinsically rooted in Western culture. If you allow Islam to invade your lands, quickly you’ll find those values disappear.
Excellent citations you have there!
I’m happy to be anti-muslim. Religions are not created equal and Islam is (although probably better than the pagan religions it replaced) substantially worse for building civilization and enforcing morality than Christianity. Which isn’t surprising, since Muhammed had sex with a nine year old girl and was probably not a very good paragon of morality.
You are aware that there are Muslims who don’t live in a hot, desert climate ? In Europe, f’r’instance ?
As for how I know (some) Muslim women are OK with wearing a scarf on their heads, brace yourself : I asked the ones I interact with on a weekly basis. Like, for realz. IRL. Mano a veilo. Den of the beast, mouth of the lion. I’m *that *brave. I’m sure my head is not long off my collarbone, but I did it for the sake of The Data.
Tell the wife I don’t have I died a hero.
Of course, there are also plenty of Muslim women around here who opt not to wear any head covering whatsoever. And they don’t get their throats slit overnight. They also drive. And vote. And, presumably, choose who they get to fuck and/or marry. Imagine that.
Perhaps you’d like to tell us what you think of the documents under the /Jews directory at that site you linked to?
Which I did, except you blazed right on by and ignored it in favor of more rants about Islam and Muhammad.
Would you care to try again?
here’s a quick test of what Islam has to offer, burn a bible in these countries and then threaten to burn a Quran ANYWHERE on the planet and see what happens.
It is a better site for the document.
The document still does not prove what you want it to prove.
The background:
Murray and Herrnsten carefully published their propaganda piece, The Bell Curve, without peer review so that they could get it out to a wider audience without its many flaws being pointed out.
A number of people challenged their claims about psychometrics.
Several people in the psychometric industry, feeling that their livelihoods were being attacked, wrote or signed an essay defending the general approach of psychometrics. (The essay did not actually support Murray and Herrnstein; it simply defended the practice of creating IQ tests. Once the academic community had the chance to actually review The Bell Curve, its many glaring errors were documented quite thoroughly.)
The essay to which you linked does not actually establish any hierarchy of intelligence by ethnic group; it merely claims that psychometric testing is not the same level of science as alchemy. Books such as The Bell Curve and IQ and the Wealth of Nations have been thoroughly debunked in regard to their “science”–including a number of fraudulent claims made by their authors.
Ah. Back to the claim that if any group has crazy or evil people, the group is evil.
So, can I put you down as a supporter of the theory that Christianity is responsible for My Lai, the bombing of Dresden, Jim Crow, the Iraq invasion, Abu Graib, etc.?
Human rights are just a set of laws like any other – albeit with a fancier name. The commies had their own version, and there’s a version which is endorsed by many Muslim countries. A version which however does not put everybody on equal footing.