Last night on Newsnight (BBC) there was a report on schools in Ohio:
A group of Christian fundamentalists (after failing in the state of Kansas) have been trying to exclude the teaching of evolution theories in science classes and forward the teaching of creationism (with their own slant on it). They have utilised parental power, leaned on teachers and school boards, even brought ministers and lawyers to bear on those teachers who insisted on remaining true to the science books. They want their ideas of “Intelligent Design”, a theory based on pseudo-science & bible teachings, taught in mainstream science classes as fact…
They want any idea of evolution theories to just fade away.
And, from what I heard on the programme, they are winning. So, what’s the dope?
Where have their ideas arisen from, and are they new?
Do they have a long history of imposing themselves on the national curriculum?
What is the possible outcome if this sort of pressure can be made to change the subjects and manner in which children are taught?
Should the parents / community have a right to force teachers to teach only what they want their kids to hear, regardless of its accepted truth globally?
How can these type of fundamentalists ever be persuaded to be tolerant and accept the possibility of conflicting ideas?
Should anything be done? What can be done to counteract this approach? Anything?
While if I had kids, I would keep them far away from any school that teaches creationism as literal fact, parents should have the right to send their kids to a school that does.
And if the community agrees that this is how they want to raise their children, then so be it.
Since we are talking about the origins of the world, apart from an ‘gee-whiz that is neato’ sense, it doesn’t really matter if people think we come from. If God created it all in 6 days, or if Big Bang is true, or if Zues whacked Chronos (?), it doesn’t really matter, in a practical sense.
I saw a group of kids lobbying for “intelligent design” on a news special a few weeks ago. They lost, but they made T-shirts! Their slogan was “teach us the facts, and let us decide for ourselves” but they seemed more like the product of a lack of good science teachers in that school district than fully functional students ready to tackle a “creator vs. natural selection” debate. If my school district started messing with the evolution program, my kids would be in a new school district faster than you can say Archaeopteryx.
It seemed to me the kids were already brain-washed into a line of thinking and they themselves didn’t want to hear anything which might contradict their (naive?) view in the world. One kid said of science / evolution classes: ** “If it is not in the bible it can’t ever be true ‘cause we have been told only the bible is true, therefore it should not be taught”**. Not even many Christians would support this attitude.
Brutus, do you not think every child should have access to a wide-range of thinking to allow them to decide for themselves? Every line of possibility should be opened to them. What if a community decided to only teach Satanism, would you tolerate that?
I don’t know much about Satanism, so I’ll have to get back to you on that one. Gut reaction says I would oppose that, though.
Kids should have a broad range of learning experiences to draw upon, but what actually constitutes those experiences is not (within reason) up to anyone but the parents and members of those communities.
Like I said, I would haul-ass from any community that wants to teach creationism. But just to contradict myself, I can’t really see the harm in it, in a practical sense. How many kids these days can name all 50 states, much less know about the Big Bang theory?
That’s why the parenthesis and the ? were included.
Some people may think it a naive comment.
I have no problems with other beliefs. I just think they should be achieved / reached from a basis involving looking at all the available evidence and working out the correct path for yourself. Its Plato’s cave scenario - you can’t form an objective opinion without looking at all the available evidence first.
I think triumphing any set of beliefs without examining or even being aware of other valid beliefs can be considered naïve.
Maybe I don’t know much about how education works in the US, but is there no national standards for teaching practice? Do communities really have the power to change what is taught? Is this a good thing? There are parental groups who influence schooling in the UK, but any changes made are implemented at a National level. The input of parents in individual schools is minor, and certainly only about teaching methods, not content.
But we digress. The debate was about “Intelligent Design” theory. Should it be allowed to be taught in schools as pure science? In a theism / philosophy class, yes, but science? I wonder.
Intelligent design (ID) is not science. It is belief. There is zero evidence, only argument from authority (i.e. the Bible). Evolution is a fact, the theory of evolution is a description of the mechanism of evolution. No biologist disputes the fact of evolution but there is extensive debate on the theory.
ID & creationism are not science, they are deliberate attempts at brain-washing by fundamentalist Christians. They are not interested in religion, science, children but only in power for themselves. They are lying, evil people and, IMHO, they should be hung, drawn and quartered, without anaesthetic.
ID should not be taught at all and if the education authorities had any guts, it wouldn’t.
And if you ask me nicely, I’ll tell you what I really think. :mad: :mad: :mad:
Humans and monkeys shared a common ancestor. The monkeys evolved from one group of descendants, we evolved from another. Same applies to people and elephants, people and iguanas, people and tuna, people and amoebae.
By your argument, there shouldn’t be any form of life except humans as we all shared a common ancestor in the past.
[flippant humour]
Ape in zoo reading Darwin and the Bible.
First visitor: “What’s the ape doing?”
Second visitor: “Trying to find out if he’s his brother’s keeper or his keeper’s brother.”
[/flippant humour]
The teachers on the programme mentioned that they are beaten down, sick of having to fight their corner so vigorously. They are given no peace to teach due to law suits, ministers knocking on their door and repeated letters from parents.
No one wants to teach the subjects of science / biology anymore. It isn’t worth the trouble. Too much hassle.
Where is the new generation of teachers going to come from?
(looks like these fundamentalist lobbists are going to win due to the passion involved in their beleifs)
It should not be up to the teachers. The education authorities should rule out ID. IIRC, in the US creationists are attempting to get elected to the school boards to influence the curriculae of the schools.
In the UK, the right wing does not have the influence in the education system to impose fundamentalist beliefs. Besides the PC lobby would jump up and down in hysteria if a purely Christian message was being promoted. (Mind you, a fundamentalist Islamic message would probably be OK but that’s another argument. :rolleyes: )
IMHO religion has no place in school. Children should be taught to think, not instructed to believe.
I firmly agree, Go Alien. Teachers, and subjects, should be protected by the Dept. of Education (or the US equivalent)
But, I always thought religion was banned in schooling in America. Anyone from the US here to dispute this?
A friend of mine spent a year in a US University (Iowa) and she told me no reference was allowed to any religion / beliefs system within the campus. Not even clubs with religious affiliations could post flyers on University notice boards. Is / was this true?
That’s why I was so concerned (read incensed) about the idea of them teaching ID as science in schools. Can they succeed?
But how would they learn to ‘think’ about maths if no one taught them to ‘believe’ that 1+1=2? (I appreciate that some philosophers might challenge the notion that 1+1=2)
Aro, teaching religion is theoretically banned in America. The problem is, those who support creationism and intelligent design regard evolution as being just as much of a belief system as their theories. I think that if you asked them, a religion is being taught in schools and it’s not theirs.
So just how powerful are they? Can they influence school boards to allow their ideas to be taught? What implications would there be for schooling in the US if they manage to succeed?
As you can probably summise, last nights programme was the first I had heard of ID
First what happens if it becomes National policy to teach creationism as science?
The problem comes when religion claims to ‘know’ something where the facts contradict it. ‘The Earth is the centre of the Universe’ etc.
By all means teach Creation as a religious subject. (And teach other world religions too.)
** But if you don’t teach evolution, as science although there is ample evidence for it, then you’re on the slippery slope to fanatical fundamentalism. **