The behavior mentioned as odd by the OP.
After all, if the cop said it was weird, it was objectively bizarre. Never mind that putting your hands where they can see’em is such a well-known and normal “I’m cooperating” gesture that it’s a cliche.
In this case, the cop said it was weird, so it was totally batshit.
From re-reading the OP, the behavior described as “odd” was the behavior of the cop.
Yes, I read the thread.
It can be questioned as to what the cop might have found less odd/weird/whatever, but hands raised showing empty hands and pretty much as defenseless as can be. Let’s say the “normal” white guy behavior of putting ones hands at ones side as a passenger is what he employed, then when the officer taps on the window of a dark truck cab and my friend goes to “normally” roll down the window, the cop has no idea what he might have in his hands. Hands up it is clear he has nothing.
I can guarantee you that from that encounter, he is not going to sit there with his hands in a less visible position in the future.
His whole thing was to put the cop at ease upon approach. Such actions should not have gotten the cop agitated.
Hey if I was the black guy, I would probably have acted the same way, I don’t wanna get shot.
Given the current climate of race relations in the country and the results of a few very public incidents, the cop seemed to be acting weird in that he was asking your black friend why he was acting like that. I’m not at all convinced that the cop could have been completely oblivious to what’s been going on. He should know why your friend was acting that way.
“Is this guy high, drunk, mentally ill or doing the worst job of hiding guilt ever?”
If the friend had acted the same way but had been white, I don’t think anyone would be questioning the cops’ actions (outside of rewording “quit acting weird”). Just because the cop and the passenger were different races doesn’t mean one or both of them is racist. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
This makes it easy to dismiss any incident as not involving any racial bias. We can’t evaluate every single incident with perfect accuracy, but when there are so many stories like this, and when the stats suggest differing treatment in so many ways, then it seems reasonable to believe that it’s a problem.
I am not saying that there is not a race problem in interactions with police. I’m saying it doesn’t seem to be an issue in this case. Just because something did not happen once, doesn’t mean it’s still widespread; but by the same token, just because something is widespread, does not it happens in every instance.
I disagree on this instance, though I’m not exactly certain. In any case, the cop behaved in an inappropriate way, IMO, more likely to escalate and cause harm then calm down anxieties and fears which are legitimately held.
White people get shot for “furtive movements” sometimes too, and obviously most black people that reach for wallets in front of cops don’t get shot.
I’ve had far worse encounters with 3 different police officers and I’ve been lectured on my friend’s behavior for one of them. I’ve literally had officers try and goad me into saying or doing something stupid. Your conjecture of white privilege seems to have alluded me.
Unlike the op I turn my ignition off, remove the keys, put the dome light on and have my license and CCW visible and ready for the officer to review. Even doing that I’ve had bad encounters. The op put the situation on a poor footing from the start. His passenger then puts his hands up in the back seat which is going to garner the attention of the officer. All that happened in the op’s example is that his passenger was asked to step out of the car so the officer could access the unusual behavior. That’s it. That’s all that happened.
“Eluded.” “Alluded” means something referenced your white privilege, not avoided it.
If the friend was white, he wouldn’t have needed to put his hands up because he wouldn’t have an expectation of being shot while not doing anything.
My wording was a little off; I should have said an example of white privilege, not definition. Still, my point is that a white person will do something without second thought (reach for a CCW permit, which presumably isn’t “visible and ready for review” at all times) that a person of color can’t presume to be consequence free. One of the first times I got pulled over, I got my proof of insurance out of the glove compartment while the cop was walking to my car. He told me that in the future, I should wait until it’s requested, because “I don’t know what you have in there.” Perfectly reasonable. Would he have said the same thing if I wasn’t white, or would I have been ordered out of the car with my hands up?
I don’t know what your point about an officer goading you into doing or saying something stupid is supposed to mean. The officer in the OP’s story did the same thing and when his friend didn’t take the bait, he still got pulled out of the car.
Why was it his job to assess a behavior that is perfectly legal and requires no explanation beyond that which he’d already surmised?
I’ve been ordered out of my car by an officer who was baiting me to say or do something stupid. I’m not seeing anything about this incident that comes close to what I’ve been subjected to. If I was black these incidents would have been internet fodder for discussions on how black people are treated. But since I’m not black it’s viewed as white privilege for not being shot.
He wasn’t pulled out of the car. He was asked to get out the car just as I was. It’s important to keep things in perspective. Otherwise they get blown out of proportion.
It’s part of the training of a police officer to look for abnormal behavior. It’s an indicator that something could be wrong. This is what the officer did. He assessed the situation. When it was determined nothing was wrong everybody went on their way. No news at 11.
I like how we keep saying the offier asked the passenger to get out of the car.
I can ask you to get out of the car and you are well within your rights to say no, fuck off.
Now try the same thing with a police officer.
That’s what all this business about “act normal” is stupid. “Normal” protocols don’t come into play with a police officer. We are to do exactly as we’re told–nothing more and nothing less lest we want trouble. And this is not normal behavior. In exchange for all this “unnatural” submissveness, at the very least we should be able to act in a formal and scripted manner as possible, without any provocative commentary about it. And that formality should not be used as an excuse to launch an investigation, as in–“Now I’m going to search you because you are acting like you’re scared of me and that’s suspicious, buster!”
People need to know when they are allowed to refuse and when they aren’t. If a police officer asks to you to step out of the vehicle, you can say no. Saying “yes” may be the normal thing to do, but saying “I’d rather not” is not probable cause of a crime. However, if he orders you to, then you need to obey unless you’re prepared to be arrested. If a police officer asks to search your vehicle, you are perfectly free to say no. But if a police officer waves a warrant in your face, then you need to obey unless you’re prepared to go to jail.
Tons of people are rotting away in prison right now because they behaved “normally” instead of “intelligently” with the police.
Abnormal behavior that signals potential criminality, maybe. But we don’t pay them to bug someone who is acting “abnormal” for just because reasons. Being harmlessly weird is a freedom I’m not willing to give away to anyone, especially an agent of the government.
The OP was the one who was driving, not his passenger. I can imagine a situation in which, instead of a black man fearful of getting shot, the passenger is someone with muscular dystrophy, facial tics, or some other disorder that would cause them to look and act “abnormally”. Are cops owed an explanation for every single thing that human beings do that deviates from preconceived norms, and are they entitled to make demands on these people until they are fully satisfied there is nothing illegal to nail them on?
I find it fascinating that the OP has admitted to not turning off his car and illuminating his car interior and yet didn’t earn any special attention from the cop. As the driver, he was the only who was responsible for the violation that got him stopped; his passenger, for all intents and purposes, was as much of a bystander in the whole exchange as some random pedestrian would’ve been. But he’s the one getting scrutinized?
So this leads me to wonder: do yall think we should we have cops asking people on the street for their licenses for the offense of holding their arms up in an awkward display of defenselessness? If anyone believes this sounds acceptable, then it’s no wonder our country is on the path that it is.
I think it would be pretty reasonable for a cop to expect an explanation for a passenger in a traffic stop having muscle twitches and facial tics.