Of course it is. But they still shouldn’t do it.
If she does ever decide to convert, it won’t be just because of the potential mother-in-law. She’s not so frivolous a person as to take such a decision lightly. She’s always been interested in learning more about different faiths, and I’m sure that if she ever chooses to convert to Judaism, it will be because she wants to, and not because others want her to. And I didn’t mean to imply that the decision was already made - it’s just something that came up at one point, and she said she wasn’t opposed to conversion.
And Captain Amazing, what right do you have to say that they shouldn’t marry? You don’t know them, you don’t know what they are to each other, you’ve never seen the love that exists between them. Maybe you think it’s not a great idea to enter into an interfaith marriage, but guess what - people do it, and people are happy. How can you say they shouldn’t marry, when all you know is that one goes to church and one goes to synagogue?
Another excellent book:
Settings of Silver by Rabbi Stephen Wylen.
Good. There are way too many people who can be that frivolous already…
I’m sure they’re both great people and love each other a lot. But Jews aren’t supposed to marry non-Jews. Ever. It’s a religious thing, for one, because Jewish law forbids it, and it’s also a practical thing. There aren’t that many Jews left in the world, and if your sister’s boyfriend marries her, his kids won’t be Jewish, not halachically, or in terms of belief…he’s not likely to raise his kids to practice Judaism. So, their kids generation, they’ll be even fewer Jews. And I just think that its sad that he’s throwing away his religion and his culture for a girl, even one as great as your sister.
This doesn’t give his mother the right to treat your sister badly…nothing does. But I do understand why it bothers her.
I think mixed faith marriages are a bad idea, too.
Christians are NOT supposed to marry non-Christians. There are rules in the Bible for what to do if, say, one spouse is a Christian and the other isn’t, as in the case of someone converting after the wedding. But going INTO a marriage knowing your partner isn’t a Christian? Big no-no.
That said, I’m not sure I put much faith in this guy’s Judaism, or her Christianity, for that matter. (This is not meant to be a diss!)
She’s willing to convert for this guy (also perhaps because she’s attracted to Judaism). That’s fine if that’s what she wants to do, but it’s a pretty darn good indication that she’s not too serious about this whole Jesus thing. That he’s dating a Gentile also shows me that his Judaism isn’t very important in his life, either – at least not the religious part of being a Jew. Culturally, etc. it may be a different story for him. This is not a case of someone “stealing” a devout believer from his/her faith. Both parties seem to be shaky.
So in this case, I don’t see much of a problem considering neither party seems to put much stock in the rules of their respective faiths. It could very well be that this guy isn’t going to put much effort into raising his children Jewish regardless of who he marries, and ditto for the girl.
She realizes this. It’s why she’s sp upset.
If mom goes the traditional route, as soon as the son announces that he’ll be marrying a nonJewish woman, she will tear her clothing and say a prayer of mourning. Her son will be dead to her from that time on. This includes putting up a stone in the family plot a year later.
This isn’t an issue of intolerance toward gentiles. It’s an issue of being intolerant toward interfaith dating and marriage. It is vitally important to us that our children’s children be raised Jewish. Nebuchednezzar tried to wipe us out. Haman tried to wipe us out. A certain Adolf tried to wipe us out. Intermarriage often means that the children are not raised Jewish. They don’t raise their children to be Jewish. In time, there are no Jews and we may as well have not bothered fighting back against all the tyrants who wanted to destroy us.
My great grandfather fled to America after killing a soldier in self defense. The soldier and his comrades had been engaged in a pogrom. My great grandfather was attacked only because he was Jewish. He fled to this country so that he could remain Jewish. If a time ever comes when none of his descendants are practicing Jews, he may as well have let the soldier kill him. The effect will have been the same.
Considering that a large portion of the family is Roman Catholic, with no trace of Jewish identity, I don’t think I’m being overly dramatic.
I plan on marrying a non-Jew, and my children WILL be raised Jewish, just as Jewish as I was with two Jewish parents.
I don’t think this is a fair statement.
If your great-grandfather’s descendants aren’t Jewish, then his life was lived in vain and he should have allowed himself to be murdered?
What about HIS life? Doesn’t the fact that he was a good Jew count for anything?
What if he had never had descendants? Or what if a Jewish woman can’t have children, does that mean her life and service to God is meaningless?
Yeah, that’s what I’m saying.
It makes it very likely he’s in Heaven. Other, than that I can’t think of anything at the moment.
He was a fertile heterosexual man. If he had never married, he would have failed to ‘be fruitful and multiply’.
Not if she adopts. I’m sure Maimonides and the other sages have written on the issue of infertility and adoption. OTTOMH I can’t think of anything in the Talmud that can be read as condemning fertility treatments, etc. ‘Wasting seed’ is condemned (there have been court cases in which Jews who have been fired for refusing to sell condoms have gotten back their jobs). However, if a man masturbates into a cup so that doctors can use the sperm to inseminate his wife, create an embryo in a petri dish and implant it etc, the seed is certainly not being wasted.
Excuse me for the stupid question, but how is this “We have to preserve the jewish culture”-spiel different from the “We have to preserve the aryan/christian/hutu/serbian race/culture”-spiel? The fact that there were atrocities commited against a (large) part of the members of the jewish culture does not excuse setting up one culture to be something holy to be preserved at the cost of peoples happiness and well-being.
This our “culture’s/race’s purity must be preserved”-thing has been done many times before and no-one seems to have learned anything from the past.
:mad:
Because we aren’t killing anyone else to do it, nor do we think any other peoples or cultures are inferior to us.
I’ll have to go with- because we’re not forcibly sterilizing gentiles, forcing them to live in walled ghettoes, having them dig their own graves and shooting them, or gassing them and then stuffing them into big ovens. We just don’t want our kids to marry them.
There were 12 tribes. Nebuchednezzar manager to scatter 10 of them. Wacky theories aside, they probably assimilated into local populations and ceased to be Jewish. The Spanish Inquisition wasn’t primarily aimed at Jews, but it did manage to kill a bunch of us. Hitler killed around six million of us (Though many historians of the Dope have argued that the number is actually much higher). We’ve lost a lot of Jews so far.
What about the happiness and well-being of the parents? ‘You say you’re marrying a gentile? Let me pretend that you haven’t broken my heart, abandoned your heritage, and made me feel that I’ve failed as a parent. Now, where are you registered?’
You are aware Hitler actually planned to preserve a Torah and certain other objects in a museum of extinct cultures?
Have you ever shown up for weekly services to discover that a cross has been burned on the lawn of another family in the congregation? Did further questioning uncover that this had happened several times before but your parents kept it from you because they didn’t think you needed to know?
We’ve learned from the past that some people want a world without Jews. If we do not make certain the next generation of Jews is at least equal to this one, Jews will slowly and quietly vanish from the world.
I would argue that, when I decide who to marry, the people whose happiness and well-being should matter most are me and my potential spouse. I would say that goes for the religion I practice, too- my parents weren’t thrilled when I converted to Judaism, but that was my decision to make and not theirs. Fortunately, they fully accept that it was my choice.
I agree that Jewish culture should be preserved, but no culture should be preserved against the will of the people who are going to be preserving it. No one should be forced or coerced or guilt-tripped into cultural or religious practices- they should do them because they find them meaningful in their own lives and want to do them.
“Separate but equal”, right?
Yes and everybody’s returning the favor by not doing that to you either.
Look, it seems it has been decided by somewhat large majority vote that that kind of thing is not OK to do, right? At least in the Western World.
And still there are 12.9 million jews in the World, 6.7 million of you in Israel alone. That’s over two and a half times the number of finns in the World and nobody’s worried that we’re dying away. 
Human beings are not some box of candies that you eat one by one until they’re all gone. A few happily married people are not going to destroy the jewish culture.
Parents will always have to make sacrifices for the happiness of their children. That’s what they are there for. The child’s future is more important than the parents.
Yes, I’m aware of his numerous weird and wacky ideas. Does that mean that we’re all just itching to grab your Torah away?
I’d have to say I’ve shown up for services and found out it’s not my thing. Among other things it tends to cause things like this belief of yours we are discussing.
I’ve also seen gravestones that have been pushed over and spraypainted. And they weren’t on jewish graves, but protestant christian ones.
Some people want a world without jews, some people want a world without the whitey, some people want a world without islam and some without Celine Dion.
There are always people who will have an irrational hatred of something of their choosing. That doesn’t automatically mean they are the majority or that they are a constant threat.
And of course you will not vanish. I’m sorry but that’s absurd. Your children will live on and remember the great many things their fathers and mothers did, how they suffered , fought and occasionally enjoyed life.
That might sound too poetic, but that’s how it goes. Your children might rebel and do their own thing for a few generations until the old ways become the cool thing again. I sincerely hope xenophobia won’t be the thing that’s coming back…
Look at the vikings. They have been dead for nearly a thousand years, but still they are remembered by their descendants. Their sagas are kept safe and there deeds are remembered and held in awe. And that same pattern can be seen all over history.
Wrong. Nice try at oversimplifying my position and dismissing it with a soundbite though.
Not counting the Israeli war of independence, when a few folks vowed to drive the Israelis into the sea.
Oh goodie. No, wait a minute. Not all Jews live in the Western world. There’s also the pesky problem of the other attempts at genocide you mentioned earlier. Slovakia had a program of forced sterilization of Romani women just a few years ago.
Yes, but when was the last time any large group tried to wipe out the Finns?
You disprove this yourself without any help from me.
I don’t think you understand how important this is. This isn’t some sitcom problem where Dad wants his son to play football and the son wants to be a violinist. This is a case of the child turning their back on their religion and heritage.
I never said it did.
I don’t hate gentiles. I oppose intermarriage. That’s it. That’s all. I don’t want seperate Jew only schools and water fountains. I don’t consider gentiles inferior.
As I said, you go on to prove it isn’t.
History has shown this not to be true.
Except that often the children of an interfaith marriage have no Jewish identity or sense of being Jewish. Their kids tend not to consider themselves Jewish at all.
This is where you blow a very large hole in your foot with a high caliber gun. The Vikings exist almost entirely as history. They are relics in museums and pictures in history books. Their culture is dead. Their myths are dead. Some people may be proud to be of Viking heritage. But do they live by the Viking laws? Worship Odin, Thor, Freya and the rest of the Asgardians in the traditional manner? Who teach their children the story of Adhumla, Buri and Bor as earnestly as Jews and Christians teach the story of Eden, Adam and Eve to their children?
There are plenty of folks descended from the ancient Romans. Do they live under Roman laws? Speak Latin as a primary language? Worship Jove, Mars, Venus and the other Olympians? Do they teach their children the tale of Gaia and Uranus?
These people are dead. They are history. They can be seen in musuems of extinct cultures. Just as Hitler wanted to do to us.
That’s how I see your position. I’m sorry but the way this looks from my viewpoint is that you have an irrational belief that you can only defend by repeating things that have been told to you by others.
I’ve been lurking on this board for quite some time and I’ve seen that you’re otherwise very rational and smart person with a considerable sense of humor.
It always vaguely creeps me out when I see otherwise smart people who have deep seated beliefs that can’t really be rationalised. I guess I’m just naive. :dubious:
Please understand that I’m not attacking you personally, I just happen to think that there are some things in your collective beliefs that might explain some of the animostity towards jews, which does of course exist in some quarters. While it of course doesn’t justify that animosity.
FYI:
First, I’m an atheist, so I tend to hold the view, that matters of religion obey the same rules of rationality than everything else.
I have to say I haven’t met many jewish people in my life, but I have never thought in any less negatively about jews than christians despite of the weird-seeming beliefs of both groups, as long as these beliefs haven’t contained things like drawing and quartering me etc.
I’ll ask two personal questions. Other jewish people can answer too if you care enough to join this discussion. Of course you might not answer, but I’ll ask anyway:
-
Were you ever harassed as a child because of your religion? I’d have to think you were as you talk about burning crosses in a previous post.
-
What did your parents tell you was the reason this was done to you?
Yes, but they didn’t vow to drive the all the jews to the sea. Half of you live outside Israel. I wonder if the neigbors would have had such things to say if the modern state of Israel didn’t come into being in such shady circumstances that no-one really seems to agree who was driven away from where and who was the aggressor.
That’s one part of the equation I don’t understand. Or let’s say I fear I understand it.
I’ve run into some jews (a minority) on the net who seem to justify everything Israel does regardless what it is and any negative views of these actions are automatically anti-semitist. No matter how many people the IDF kills, they were all a threat to Israel.
I’m curious, is the modern Israel viewed by majority of the jewish people as an equivalent to the original Israel, so much that it must be defended without exception?
If that is true, there can **never **be peace between Israel and the neighbors.
The Israelis are humans as much as anybody else and if nobody breaks the ranks & voices enough discontent and they continue to ignore the World opinion the future governments will continue to lash out against every perceived threat real or not.
That just means you’re not alone in not having learned from the past. One can always hope…
I guess it is a consolation to some that jews don’t practice honor killings like some muslim sects.
Of course you didn’t. I’m just wondering what you were hoping to archieve with that snippet of info.
Everybody who objects to one aspect of that Torah is trying to snatch it away from you and make you worship the Yellow Happy Panda and prance around naked in the forest?
You do recognize that there are practically no genetic difference between average western jew and a gentile?
If you do, what makes a person jewish, except their religion?
And if there is no difference, how can the possible jewishness be diluted in a child if both of the parents are basically of the same genetic stock?
I’m sad to hear that. My family still has photos of a relative in the Russian navy fro m the year 1912. And we can trace back our ancestors from Norway, Sweden, Germany and Great Britain.
And I’m sure they equally often consider themselves jewish.
If a belief system can’t give it’s followers the reason to follow it, no amount of coercion will help.
Perhaps you doubt that the jewish faith can give the children reason to follow it unless they are told to from a very young age?
That’s the point. Only the aspects that are certainly worth remembering survive. Much is unfortunately lost, again, some of it fortunately lost.
Why should they? Their descendants seem to think it’s much better to worship the gods they have now. However, much of the time of the Romans is still remembered, mostly the good things, not the lead poisoning, slavery and plagues.
Same will of course happen to the jews, just like it will to christians and muslims.
Although more will be remembered as we have all our modern data storage gadgets. I guess the single-mindedness, child-mutilation and trigger-happiness of some will be remembered too and serve as a warning for the next generations.
Hitler-Hitler-Hitler…
Gah, how could I miss this question:
Before and after the Continuation war which was part of WWII, Stalin killed deported many finnish and karelian people to Siberia from the areas around lake Ladoga and a large part of them died there.
killed or deported obviously…
And if so, would that not be THAT child’s own free choice to do so?
“Gee, I don’t hate blacks. I just don’t want my kids MARRYING one of them!”
:rolleyes:
You remind me of what my grandfather told me, about his parents. My great-grandfather was German. My great-grandmother was Irish. My great-great grandmother did not want her good German son marrying some Mick, and their children wouldn’t be German. Yeah, it sounds corny now, but back then, it was a real concern.
And before you bring up Hitler, I’ll remind you that while they haven’t had something like the Holocaust, the Irish have indeed been persecuted throughout their history, and the British did a pretty good job of trying to wipe them, out, almost. (Maybe not as overtly, but when the Potato Famine happened in the 1840s, there were some rather prominant Englishmen who suggested it was a good thing, that maybe it would kill of the whole damned lot of them).
If my ancestors had had the same attitude as you, I wouldn’t exist. Because they wouldn’t mix for fear of “losing their culture.” I am of Polish-Slovak-Hungarian-Irish-German ancestry.
Hey, my family has always been Catholic, as far as I can tell. I’m no longer practicing, or consider myself a faithful Catholic. It’s upset my father a great deal, but you know what? In the end, that’s too damned bad. Because it isn’t his decision to make. It’s mine.
Hitler tried to wipe out a lot more people than the Jews. He tried to kill the Romani, the Slavs, those with disabilities, gays, etc. So, for that reason, should no Slav ever marry say, a Celt? Should a Romani stick to his own kind?
And who is to SAY they won’t appreciate their cultural heritage? I may not be a pure-bred Pollack, but we still observe many of the old customs, even in such simple things as recipes.
Like it or not, some people are going to choose a different path, and you just have to accept that. This idea, this need to preserve the whatever “race/ethnicity” is what lead to Hitler types in the first place.
Damn, DocCathode, I’ve always admired you as a poster, but this is just a very harmful attitude. And to compare someone marrying outside their faith to something like the fucking Holocaust is just beyond vile.