You don’t seem to get the difference between a treaty and an agreement. So, to answer this (again), basically if it’s not ratified by Congress the US isn’t bound to it or to honor it. In fact, it’s NOT a contract. And it’s not legally binding.
Now, if you can convince Wells Fargo that your mortgage isn’t a legally binding contract, well, more power too you. Personally, I would make sure you have a backup plan that doesn’t send you to jail, but let me know how it works out for you.
Where did I say that getting out of the deal was a good thing? If that’s what you got out of my post, I’m unsure how you can say my ‘point’ (whatever that means to you) was or is ‘wrong’.
You implied that there was some sort of legitimacy or justification to Trump’s move to abandon the deal. You even said that there wasn’t “zero justification”. When abandoning the deal hurts America and helps no one but extremists, there is no such legitimacy or justification, not even the littlest bit. There is indeed “zero justification” for abandoning the deal. There’s no defense of Trump’s actions, not even the littlest bit.
And yet, there we were abiding by the agreement… until we saw an unrelated reason to stop? That’s your position: it’s okay to stop doing something you’ve agreed to do, for any reason whatsoever?
That’s not likely to prove a popular position for potential agreements or those who would make them.
These are two different things. I SAID I thought it was a bad idea for us to back out. But there are also legitimate points that the US could use to justify backing out…also, we don’t actually need any at all, as we can see wrt Trump. That’s the thing with non-binding agreements…they aren’t binding. The next President down the road can just reverse course if that’s what he chooses to do. And that’s what he chose to do.
Again…I’ve said, multiple times, I think it was a mistake. I think on this as on many things, Trump was wrong…and was an idiot. I would have stuck with the agreement and applied pressure in other ways. But I would have applied that pressure, as what Iran was and is doing is not in the US’s best interest in the region. They have and are supporting proxy terrorist groups and actions all through the region and that needs to stop.
Of course, here is some free advice since apparently 'dopers as well as perhaps these countries are confused…get a treaty ratified by Congress if you are making a big concession. If North Korea is smart they will actually give up their nukes…but they will only do so with a ratified treaty, not on the say so of the idiot in the White House.
sigh Again, you are talking about several different things. What difference if they were abiding by it wrt legally binding? It wasn’t legally binding. The next president down the line, or the one after that could do exactly what Trump did for reasons…or no reason at all.
MY position is not that it’s OK. I think that folks are incapable of understanding that what my opinion on this can be different than the reality of the situation. I’ll say it again…I disagreed and disagree with what Trump did. That doesn’t mean that what he did was illegal or that any president couldn’t have done it. As to popularity, I don’t give a flying fuck if it’s popular…again, it’s reality. If you are a country negotiating with the US and it’s vitally important, then hold out for a ratified treaty. Or take your chances. This has always been the case throughout history.
Let me ask you a question. If Trump made some agreement with some country that every Democrat disagreed with, would you feel that the next Democratic president to be elected should be bound by it? Disconnect yourself from this specific instance and THINK about what that implies. Should the next Democrat elected go along with it, even if that president and the party feel it was bad and not in the US’s interest? Your answer will be telling…can you decouple yourself from a partisan mindset and from emotion on this specific issue to understand the reality…or not.
With zero justification, zero legitimacy, zero good reasons. Why defend such an awful and harmful decision? That’s what you’re doing – providing some defense, even along with your criticism. There’s no reason for such a defense. This was total dereliction of duty, at the expense of US national security. A colossally stupid decision, and worthy of no defense at all. It doesn’t matter if the next president can change it – this is always true. Every president can choose to do catastrophically stupid things… that doesn’t justify it in any way at all.
There was no chance of Obama getting the deal ratified by the Congress he was dealing with. That’s no defense of abandoning the deal, which helps no one but extremists, and does great harm to the US.
I don’t understand why you’d want to lend Trump this bullshit bit of justification. There is zero justification for his actions. This hurts America and helps extremists. There’s no justification for purposefully hurting America and helping extremists, even if it’s through ignorance and incompetence.
Who said it was illegal? It was colossally stupid, and you’re partially defending this colossal stupidity.
Depends on whether abandoning the deal would greatly hurt America and help extremists. The only principle here is not doing things that hurt America and help extremists. There’s no defense for such decisions.
Because you can’t seem to grasp that he didn’t need justification, and that pointing out reality doesn’t mean I endorse the decision. I agree, it hurt the US.
See, this is what happens when folks allow their idiotic emotions to rule them and vote for…OR DON’T FUCKING VOTE…a populist idiot, instead of gritting their teeth and picking the less bad choice.
Of course he needs justification for his actions! He’s the fucking President. If he does something stupid for a stupid reason, it shouldn’t be defended in any way. Are you saying the President can do anything he’s legally allowed to do and he shouldn’t be criticized for it? If not, what the hell are you saying? None of us are saying that it was against the law, just that the President did a colossally stupid thing, with zero justification, and that you shouldn’t provide even the slightest bit of defense for it.
Yeah, or I suppose the Iranian’s for not holding out for a treaty. Basically, if it were me and I was the leader of a country negotiating with the US I wouldn’t settle for anything short of a full Congressional ratification…assuming I was in a position TOO hold out, of course.
Really? What justification did he have? Are you saying he wasn’t legally ‘allowed’ to do what he did?? If so…well, he’s in jail then, right? Or being or been impeached??? I must have missed that…do you have a link? I actually have a bottle of VERY good tequila I set aside (this is a MAJOR sacrifice for me btw) for when the guy is impeached and going to jail, so please, post that link!
What? I just said he was legally allowed to do it! He needs justification because he’s the President and he has to justify every single major fucking decision he makes. It’s a big job and every damn decision needs justification. Not “legally” needs, but needs because that’s the standard we should demand. And you shouldn’t be providing a defense in any way.
I don’t understand your point then I guess. Obviously, he could do it. That’s kind of it. I’m not sure why you think he needs some elaborate justification to do what he did…you just admitted it’s within his abilities.
I believe the fairly weak justification he used was some vague bullshit about how Iran wasn’t doing…something. That seems to have been good enough. I am, again, not defending anything. Reality IS. It’s what it is. He could do it, and he did it. Hell, he said he was going to do this in several of his campaign speeches and his ridiculous tweets during the Obama administration about it being a bad deal, blah blah blah. It was militantly unsurprising that he did this in fact, or that his ‘justification’ was basically some horseshit that no one bought.
Then why are you defending him? He did a colossally stupid and harmful thing, hurting America and helping extremists. He should be criticized harshly every day for it, as should his supporters and enablers. It doesn’t matter that he could do it – there’s plenty of things that he could do but shouldn’t.
Well, I’m defending him because he’s a great American and a great President, and he’s got huge, enormous hands!! At least, that seems to be what the XT in your head is saying. You don’t seem to be listening to the one posting in this thread, so hopefully the one in your head is drunker than I am at the moment. Man, what I REALLY hope is the one in your head is drinking that really excellent tequila and smoking a fine Cuban cigar while Trump is being lead off to jail in an orange jumper! Now that would be really good…
