The reason we have laws (including international treaties) is to draw the line between what’s acceptable and what isn’t. The territorial boundary is literally that line.
You don’t get to stalk criminals or listed sex offenders, either 
As for spy sats, they’re pretty old history by now and militaries have more or less adapted to make them a non-factor these days - that’s why drones.
But I wouldn’t cry foul if somebody decided to blow them up to bits over their own privacy/sovereignty concerns (except inasmuch as it could kickstart the whole space trash chain reaction Gravity catastrophe that’s becoming a more serious concern with every space launch ; and there goes HBO again).
:dubious: They shot down a multi-million dollar drone at a point when there are serious questions as to whether or not they have also directly or indirectly attacked several civilian ships in the region and also at a time when tensions are extremely high. This was, absolutely, and escalation and a direct confrontation, not a ‘pretty please with a bow on top’. Good grief. They have diplomatic channels for that if that was there intention. They could have asked the Swiss to convey such a message.
And it was basically pointless, unless they are so stupid as to think that a Global Hawk was the only asset the US could possibly have to view the area. Again…:dubious: Basically, they would be idiots to be trying to ‘Ask the US to stop spying on them’ at any time, let alone right now, and to do so by basically shooting down a drone.
It’s hard for me to believe that people can think this way. I literally don’t get it. I mean, I do get that the US has provoked this to a large degree by pulling out of the nuclear treaty, but this sort of shit is on them. They don’t have to be doing this, especially considering that until they cross the line wrt the treaty every other signatory is still honoring it. And the US hasn’t exactly gotten the other powers on board with giving that up…yet. But if Iran keeps doing this, they are rapidly going from the injured party to the one pushing the confrontation…and it will play right into the war hawks plans. I’m frankly surprised that Trump didn’t order retaliation, though I honestly don’t think it’s what he wants…I think he wants to bully the Iranians into a new deal, even if the deal is essentially the same as the one we already had. Just, you know, that Obama won’t be involved and Trump can say he made a MUCH better deal because he’s awesome and the greatest negotiator ever and stuff. But a lot of the folks Trump has surrounded himself with DO want Iran to do stupid shit like this and use it as an excuse to hammer them, and we are kind of on the brink of that at this point. One more miscalculation and it’s a shooting war in the region…a region that has that vital oil stuff flowing through it. And it’s a region where Iran, far from being the weak and innocent nation some in this thread seem to be trying to portray them as, has instead been setting up alliances with terrorist groups in multiple countries that WILL be doing that nasty asymmetric warfare stuff all through the region. Iran will lose, and a lot of folks will die, but it’s not going to be cake and hot chocolate for the US or it’s allies either. It will be a huge mess that will probably make us wish for the good old days of the Iraqi conflict.
Agreed, but then again when those specific boundaries were drafted spy planes weren’t a thing yet, and spying capabilities have greatly improved since. As has society’s reliance on technologies that drones outside itl lines could very much fuck with.
So maybe we need new lines - in which case the Iranian missile might be the equivalent of an NAACP lawsuit to bring the case to the Supreme Court :). I mean, clearly they’re saying “this is shit up with which we will not put any more”. Do they have any reason to agree to be spied upon ? Would *any *country placidly agree to that ?
Here’s hoping the NAACP doesn’t get missiles.
Regards,
Shodan
I would agree… *if *the US President was anybody but Trump. I don’t think diplomacy with Trump or his people is worth anybody’s time. Even your allies don’t really bother any more (ask Angie Merkel…), and you expect Iran of all countries to expect a diplomatic overture to accomplish something with this administration ?
Um what? Spy planes, and balloons before that, have been a thing since the beginning of flight. In fact, accommodations have been made regarding international boundaries. It’s 12 miles now, with 24 and 200 nm for different purposes. Anyone else remember when 3 miles was the limit?
Without knowing whether the drone was in or out of Iranian airspace, I can say this about the terms we’re using:
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An incursion into another country’s airspace is a provocation. Responding to that provocation does not constitute another provocation, it’s self defense.
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Navigating in international waters is allowed by treaty. States may decide that certain postures in international waters are a threat, but that doesn’t matter. The treaty exists solely for the purpose of deciding what can and can’t be a provocation.
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Iran escalated the violence. We were not at the level of aircraft getting shot down. Now we are. Escalation may or may not have been justified, but it was an escalation.
One thing I find interesting is that both parties are signalling de-escalation (or at least restraint). i.e. Iran said it could have shot down a P-8 (35 crewmembers) but didn’t. The US said it was about to strike SAM batteries but it didn’t. Perhaps some adults have entered the room.
“Russian trawlers” are doing their “fishing” just beyond our sovereign territory all the time. Like, all the time.
The difference is, Russia has mnogo nukes. Are there Iranian “trawlers” ? North Korean ones ?
Chinese do this sort of thing too. Plus there is the Russian’s constantly pushing countries in Europe with similar tactics. Hell, sometimes they DO go into countries air spaces (such as the Turkey example). This isn’t some new provocation by the US against Iran, it’s kind of a regular thing that many nations do. Specifically, right now, the US probably needs to be looking harder at the area since there have been a number of attacks on oil tankers in the region.
This isn’t to say the US isn’t at fault for the core issue with all this, but people trying to justify Iran’s actions aren’t correct on this one. It was a fairly stupid provocation and probably brought us to the brink. I can’t believe Trump DIDN’T push us over the line, to be honest. Personally, I was bracing myself for the worst when I heard about the drone shoot down. Figured we’d get another repeat of the Syrian strikes at a minimum, and then the fecal matter would have definitely hit the rotary impeller unit…
Huh?
I don’t see how that’s a difference at all. Russians have nukes, so they can surveil us from international waters. We have nukes, so we can’t surveil Iran from international waters?
I mean Russia has nukes, so there’s a whole historical Thing about maybe not poking that particular bear, and yet another whole historical process through which both the US and Russia have *thoroughly *mutually explored the space(s) within which they are respectively allowed to fuck with each other, and more importantly have established clear lines that it would be pants-shittingly scary to get anywhere near. Again.
Iran, OTOH, does not have nukes. So the US seems to feel like it gets to fuck with Iran with impunity as much as it wants. The Iranians, apparently, take some exception with this state of affairs.
Iranians have no qualms about fucking with everyone else in the M.E. Including US allies. Maybe they should fuck off and quit being such assholes.
You do realize that Russia fucks with a bunch of other countries besides the US, some with nuke capabilities, some without…right? I mean…they do this constantly, and have actually been doing it more in the last 10 years. China does this as well. I believe France and the UK do too. Hell, I couldn’t even come up with a exhaustive list of countries that do this. You are making it seem like this is only the US doing this, but the reality is that it happens all the time. The US has more extensive drone capabilities, so many countries do this with manned missions instead, but this is pretty common.
And, of course, there are those satellite thingies that kind of makes the idea moot in any case. Using a drone gets you better pictures and quicker responses to developing situations, but we don’t need them. And neither do all the other, myriad countries that have such satellites. Including…wait for it…Iran. Who also has at least one ‘recon’ satellite, if not more, and, of course, can do what many countries do, which is buy satellite data from independent companies or use data from their allies systems.
That still doesn’t make any sense. Russia has nukes so they can spy on us; but we have nukes so we can’t spy on Iran? Where does Iran not having nukes enter into the equation? I mean, in a meaningful and logical way.
Agreed. Iran is a terrible actor but it’s absurd to expect them to respond diplomatically to Trump, when Trump made a deliberate point to shitcan diplomatic measures with Iran from day 1.
Iran knows what we all know about Trump. He’s a paper tiger who only picks on the weak. If you want him to leave you alone, your only option is to buy him off or punch him in the fucking nose, and he will probably do nothing but go on Twitter and cry about how unfair it is.
Then what you are saying is war is the only alternative. Basically, if they can’t work with the US then this sort of escalation WILL lead to war at some point. Oh well? Bummer?
I agree that Trump is ridiculous. And perhaps Iran just doesn’t want to bother even attempting to try some sort of peaceful means. But I think it’s a pretty big risk to think Trump will just back down if someone shows strength by shooting down a drone. It shows a real disconnect with reality, to me at least, that you even think that’s a thing. That Trump is afraid of Iran because, what? He knows they can beat us in a fight?
He had no seeming hesitation in sending in over 100 cruise missiles against Syria, even when there was a very real threat Russia could be caught in the cross fire, and you think he won’t do something like that with Iran because he’s scared?? Hell, he’s MORE likely to do something monumentally stupid if he thinks someone is pushing him into a corner wrt how tough he is.
They didn’t have to shoot first and ask questions later. It wasn’t their only option. They might see it as their best option, to try and escalate and show the US how tough they are and force us to back down. That might even work. But it might not, too, and it’s not a game of chicken I’d be willing to play if I was Iran headed straight at the US.
I think Iran could, plausibly, negotiate with the US, even with Trump at the helm. Hell, the could basically just play the negotiation game with the current administration (perhaps get our idiot in chief to go there for a visit, or maybe a neutral meeting in Russia, with lots of hand shakes and such), play for time and until Trump is out. This would show that they are trying to work with the situation and being the grownups. It would also keep all those other countries that ARE still going along with the agreement happy and willing to keep going on with it. And I think Trump could be played fairly easily…all he really wants is some agreement, any agreement, even if it’s exactly the same as before, that has his name on it instead of Obama’s. Look at the NAFTA thing…he renegotiated basically the exact same agreement we already had. And the same goes with the EU and trade.
And yet they did exactly that.
OK, slower : Russia has nukes, and past fuckery between the US and Russia have brought us a Trump’s dick length close to global annihilation on numerous occasions. So, by mutual “ooookay let’s all take a minute and back a step slooowly on 3”, you can’t punish their spying *too *much because a shooting war with Russia would be very, very bad and nobody wants to chance it. Same with China.
Iran OTOH doesn’t have nukes, so you send drones into their airspace maybe (probably). It’s not the first they brought down, either. But if they sent “trawlers” or somehow zoomed drones in-and-around US airspace, those would soon develop a chronic lead allergy on the basis of “what’s Iran gonna do about it ?”, don’t you think ?