Iraq and the Election

elucidator: I don’t know how interesting you’ll find it. This whole thing sounds like a minor misunderstanding, or at worst a very slight mischaracterization. According to the article you linked:

You can quibble over whether there was an actual official IAEA report (looks like there wasn’t, and Bush either accidentally or intentionally misattributed the source), but the essential facts are there - In 1991 Iraq was six months away from being able to produce enriched uranium. That means they were about six months away from a nuclear bomb, because the design for the bomb could have been done in parallel and completed in about the same time.

You are simply picking nits, although I agree that the Bush administration should do a better job of getting their attributions straight. In case you haven’t noticed, errors like this happen all the time, in every administration. But they should do better, for sure.

But the essential point is exactly the same, so Bush was not concocting a lie or exaggerating a threat. He merely got a source wrong.

Is Saddam suicidal? No. But he IS reckless, and he makes gross miscalculations. It was amazingly stupid of him not to withdraw from Kuwait when it became clear that he would face the U.S. military if he didn’t. It was amazingly stupid of him to attack Iran, and insane to use weapons of mass destruction.

There is a common pattern around dictators like Saddam - they surround themselves with yes-men who are afraid to speak their minds, and instead blow rosy sunshine up their leader’s ass to keep themselves from being killed. Whatever harebrained scheme the glorious leader comes up with gets approval from anyone who wants to stay alive. So these leaders become dangerously disconnected from reality and common sense.

This point is made better in the new book “The Threatening Storm” by Kenneth Pollock. He happens to be the Clinton Administration’s top expert on Iraq. And he strongly supports military action to overthrow Saddam.

In case you missed the scenario, here it is: Saddam builds a nuke. He announces it to the world, along with enough evidence to prove he’s not kidding. Photos, design documents, a sample of the enriched Uranium, whatever. Then he announces a new policy: Unless the U.S. withdaws from the gulf region immediately, he will attack Tel Aviv with his nuclear weapon.

Have fun deciding what to do.

The worst-case scenario: Saddam buys time by playing games with inspectors for the next five years. In the meantime, he surreptitiously builds five or six bombs. He smuggles one into New York, and one into LA or some other large city. Or, if he can’t get them into the U.S. he smuggles them overland into Europe and plants them in large cities. Maybe he keeps a couple at home. Now he makes the same threat: leave the gulf, or Paris goes up.

So the world decides to play his game of brinksmanship, and the U.S. starts its military buildup in Qatar. 100,000 troops land there, and Saddam obliterates them with a nuke. And the same threat comes out - leave me alone, and we’ll call it a draw. If you destroy me with nukes, five European cities will be destroyed.

Is that the future you’re hoping for? Because it’s the type of scenario that is likely if Saddam stays in power, in my opinion and the opinion of people like Pollock. You can discount mine, but there are few people around with as much knowledge of Iraq as he has, and he has no political axe to grind, since he’s a Democrat and was part of the Clinton administration.

As for the uranium being ‘apparently headed for Iraq’ - it was confiscated on the main highway leading towards Iraq, and they were going in that direction. And Saddam has been trying to buy enriched Uranium. But if you want to believe it was actually headed for Africa or something, be my guest.

Didn’t the ABC uranium take a trip through Turkey before arriving in NYC ? How do we know that isn’t just Geraldo trying a similar stunt for Fox News ? The news articles claim that the material originated in eastern europe, yet a photograph shows the uranium (pig ?) is clearly labeled MADE IN W. GERMANY. Someone is being deceitful with the uranium story, and I’m not certain that it’s the so-called smugglers.

With regard to whether or not Clinton’s policy was a failure, that’s not the issue here. The issue is the extent to which Clinton and the dems also used warmongering tactics to improve their chances in house and senate elections. As I recall, Iraq wasn’t a huge issue in the 98 campaign. Unless someone can show that the dems used a “soft on Saddam” theme on the hapless republicans, the Bush administrations actions stand out perhaps the most craven attempt to buy votes with guns that this nation has ever seen.

Give it up, Squink.

As demonstrated by a triple-failure to answer a simple question posed by myself, Sam seems to have no interest in answering inconvenient questions today with regards to what was said and done in 1998.

Well, gee, Sam, didn’t mean to make a big deal out of this minor little “misattribution”. Why, heck, all of us make mistakes, huh? Just the other day I burned the oatmeal. So, really, why should we make such a big deal of of such a little bitty ol’ fib.

Except, well, I’m still a little disturbed by it all. How this report was brandished as proof positive of the need for war. This non-existent report.

Sam, you seem to be a very forgiving fellow. Perhaps I lack your sense of charitability, perhaps its my situational ethics. But help me out a little here. Didn’t we have some big ol’ hoot and holler about a President who “lied to the American people”. About some pretty trivial shit, as I recall.

If I read you right, you seem to feel we should just shrug this off, no hurt, no foul, no biggie.

Can’t do it, Sam. Misattribution, lie, boo-boo, whatever. I demand, demand that a man who would lead us to war owes us the complete, unvarnished truth down to the last jot and tittle.

I don’t really disagree with that, except when the revealing of that information would risk the lives of people in the field and/or harm the Unites States’ intelligence gathering capability.

I believe there is quite a bit of that type of evidence. Intel from Iraq is probably coming from people who also desire an end to Saddam, and revealing those sources would mean instant death for them. We may have listening assets or satellite capabilities that are classified - as I recall, Kennedy’s satellite photo exhibit at the U.N. revealed a lot of new capability to the world that they didn’t know existed, and as a result the Soviets took new measures to hide their activities.

So I think we are operating from incomplete information. And in that situation, I tend to put more trust in the United States Government over the government of Saddam Hussein.

I am sorry that my earlier post went “on air” without spell-checking and I did not check everything else either.
I just pushed the button “Submit replay” when I wanted to push “Preview replay”. I hope You got something out of my partly dizzy post.

Now if You think that these following sources are biased:
Search “uranium Germany arrest” (some 5.200 hits) and “uranium Turkish police” (some 3.500 hits). I just took from the 2 first pages these above.
If You think there is some biased from Your point of view, go through some ten more pages and You will find exactly the same shit “from Your unbiased sources”.

About Uranium and Turkey and how everyone can get a bomb if the politicians does not do anything (much) about it.
From where and to where is it going (when its known):
http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/flow/turkey/factsht.htm

In November 2001:
http://tides2000.mitre.org/Tides-Testbed/devdata/dawn/raw/20011108/16.36.40-1153
2

(Bolding mine)

About what happened on Saturday:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/020928/80/dalwe.html

Why is Iraq mentioned here? Look at the map:
http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/flow/turkey/map.htm
From e.g. Syria it can go anywhere. Naturally Saddam would also buy, everybody is buying.

Just not to criminilize only former Soviet Union:
http://www.nuclearfiles.org/prolif/fm-theft.html
begins like this:

(Bolding mine)

The Christian Science Monitor is reporting about thefts in Russia:

Everybody can have some uranium:
Helsingin Sanomat (the biggest newspaper in the Nordic countries) reports from yesterday (in Finnish):
http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/teksti/juttu.asp?id=20020928OL16

Here some older facts:
http://www.agroeco.nl/~wise/417/4133.html

I hope You all find a politician that is for total control of fissible materials in every country when You vote next time.
There are more crazy men in the world than Saddam! Naturally he is one too much, but if he would step down tomorrow, would “the business be as usual”?

About the very core of the OP: It is quite clear that all this about war is also connected with the elections.
Show me a country that does not do this kind of propaganda and I will faint of pure amazement. :eek:
On the other hand, the US propaganda inside US, for its citizens is quite amazing.
(Propaganda here [my Collins is down for the moment]: bullshit served to citizens, eating it eagerly, without noticing what they have to swallow.
[Not maybe very Collins ;)])

Peace for us all! :slight_smile: