I didn’t find a question that asked if they were very happy with their liberation. Maybe it’s a different poll.
Dear Mister Boo Boo Foo,
You are a mean man. You said…
"…you don’t have a compassionate, non-sanctimonious bone in your body.
Rarely have I seen a more blatant case of “projecting” one’s inadequacies onto those less fortunate than ourselves."
And then you called my butt “condesending”.
My mother always told me that if I didn’t have anything nice to say about somebody not to say anything at all.
Boo Foo, you have me speechless.
Except that I’ll bet your brick and raise you a brickyard that you’ll not respond properly to these salient points…
*** Germany was rubble after World War II.
*** Japan was devastated by the drops of two large bombs.
*** Iraq was defeated carefully with a minimal lost of iraqi cilivian and military lives by a kinder and gentler set of allies this year.
Today Germany commands the second largest economy on Earth while poor Japan is only third. It wasn’t easy, the civilized world had to drag both countries kicking and screaming into the modern arena of prosperity and peace.
Shee-et! In contrast Iraq will be a piece of cake.
Same poll
Hey SimonX, neat-o poll, daddie-o…
**“Comparing your life today with one year ago, is it better or worse?”
'much better" 10%
‘a little better’ 22%
‘unchanged’ 16%
‘a little worse’ 20%
‘much worse’ 47%
‘not sure’/not stated 6%**
Well kiss my pig,___ **121% ** of those polled in Iraq responded to the query, SimonX.
See… the Iraqis are ready for democracy, they’re just not ready for high math.
How does America, such a magnificent and intelligent country, produce such mind-numbing ignorance?
In the last 10 months, time and time and time again, various ignorant people have tried to equate Iraq with the rebuilding of Germany via the Marshall Plan or the rebuilding of Japan via the US Occupation as some sort of parallel, mirror image which can stamped onto Mesopotamia like some sort of cookie-cutter feel good pill.
You’ve challenged me to comment on these points - however I point blank refuse to honour them by noting that they are anything but salient. Indeed, they’re as misleading as they are irrelevant.
You’ve asserted that both Germany and Japan had to be dragged “kicking and screaming” into the modern era. Holy shit… the scriptwriters of “Fantasia” had a better grip on reality than you Milum.
And most importantly, you’ve done the classic pissweak debating tactic of introducing topics which have ZERO to do with this thread - somehow, inanely praying in the forlorn hope that you might score a twinky point here, or maybe there.
Well, that ain’t gonna happen Milum. You’re not gonna get off the hook that easily. In your earlier posts you asked why can’t Iraqi’s act like men, instead of children? Let me ask you this… the USA had 3,000 Americans killed in 9/11 - Iraq has had conservatively more than 15,000 civilians killed since April alone - let alone mutilations and life long crippling injuries. I’ve seen footage of sobbing fathers holding children in agonised tears with their backs burnt off from bombs which have landed in the wrong place. Children with limbs blown off - intestines hanging out.
This bizarre fantasy you’ve got Milum that Iraq is some sort of video game of strategy with no one “really getting hurt” is utterly typical of just one sort of messageboard inhabitant - namely, the spoilt child who insists on stating inflammatory remarks purely for the joy of getting a reaction. But you’re not gonna get that satisfaction from me. You’re not gonna get away with doing a December on us.
Your political beliefs are moot, and here’s why. You’re a troll Milum - and I’m calling you out.
ooops. I read the ‘total worse’ line instead of the one above it. It should read like this:
'much better" 10%
‘a little better’ 22%
total better 32%
‘unchanged’ 16%
‘a little worse’ 20%
‘much worse’ 27%
total worse 47%
‘not sure’/not stated 6%
But, if you looked at the citation, you know that already. Please pardon my ranscription error.
Milum, Do you have a cite for your stats?
While I have little doubt that the average Iraqi citizen is pleased to have Saddam out of the picture, I also imagine it will be quite some time before the aforesaid frankly reveals his political opinions to a stranger.
As to the OP: who, in thier right mind, is going to invest in Iraq when they have no clue as to security, or even the structure of governance, unless that investment is somehow guaranteed. And who, pray, will guarantee that investment? We will, I suppose.
Who, then, will proudly announce the huge influx of foreign investment? And who will take it in the shorts if it all goes South?
For perspective
** _______________________________________
[“Milum, Do you have a cite for your stats?” -SimonX ]**
I know you aren’t gonna like this but I heard it on the radio.
I’ll see if I can pull it up…
_/_
You’re not gonna get away with doing a December on us.
Your political beliefs are moot, and here’s why. You’re a troll Milum - and I’m calling you out. - Boo Boo Foo
__/_
OK** Boo Boo Foo**, you found me out. I am a ** Decembrist**. I wasn’t always a Decembrist. I only became one when December was ** BANNED**.
But ** BOO**, I am not a TROLL.
Define **" TROLL" **._____ 
I think Milum stole some of ambushed’s happy pills.
Look at all the pretty colors…
Milum: Bullshit in Technocolor is still bullshit. Stop with the clever reversals, the veering between topics, and especially the crayola. Stick to the issue brought up in the OP.
Didn’t we the tax payers buy Iraq? 87 billion dollars on top of who know how much else that might as well be flushed down a toilet? It’s sickening to me. What a colossal waste of lives, resources and our money for a people who don’t give a fuck. They want us gone, they want autonomy? Fine. If it was up to me
I start pulling out tomorrow. Let their Muslim brothers help rebuild it. Fat Chance.
You bought Iraq? Do you honestly believe that the USA now “owns” Iraq like some house on a mortgage? Jesus Christ! How many more people like you are there in the USA? Is there some sort of bizarre parallel universe going down in your country at the moment where “common sense” is replaced by patriotic hoopla laden with utter distortion? Crikeys, that’s a frightening attitude. Honestly, that attitude is just so incredibly arrogant that it’s destined to engender even further bitterness by the Arab World towards the USA. Is it remotely possible that you could fail to get it, even more so?
And worse yet… your assertion that the Iraqi people don’t give a fuck? Mark my words fatjack - oh they do - oh yes they do. They’re seething with hatred towards you Americans right now for what you’ve done. The thing is, because you’re so far away in your nice, safe, protected American home, those Iraqi’s don’t have the opportunity to kill you personally, so they’re getting even by slowly, methodically biding their time and killing those poor, unfortunate soldiers of yours who are forced to do a job which is similar to nothing so much as the wretched fate forced on the men and women who served in Vietnam.
The difference this time is that Iraq is already a desert. Your military forces this time can’t drop 8 billion litres of dioxin laden Agent Orange which can toxify the soil for a 150 years leading to birth defects a 1000 times higher than normal. This time, the “enemy” are all around your soldiers - like a plague - and you’ve learnt nothing - absolutely nothing. The mistakes of history repeating themselves yet again.
Iraq isn’t for sale. Some of you American’s might foolishly like to think that you can force anyone anywhere to bend to your will, but at the end of the day, the more you “force” someone to do something, the more they resent you. You have to convince people that it’s in their interests to do something you want - anything less is equivalent to taking careful aim at your foot with a bazooka.
To be fair, BBF, only 9% of Baghdadis are ‘very hostile’ to American and British soldiers stationed in Iraq. How many does that make? Well, Baghdad has roughly 5mil people…naught, naught, carry the naught…why that’s only 450,000 Baghdad residents.
Only 30% of Iraqis have had their own family members, neighbors, or friends killed in this spring’s war. Hussein had a much better market saturation than that. Now, granted, it took him decades longer than it took us, but he only made it 50%.
And actually, 47% of Baghdadis don’t give a fuck whether they live under Hussein or under the Americans, (if they were given a choice). 9% of them said that they’d rather live under Hussein.
Iraq was raped, now it’s being pillaged.
If you expected anything else, don’t read further, you’re too stupid for me to talk to.
Chalabi, the known (and convicted) master embezzler has been appointed for just long enough to “privatise” (read “steal and sell off”) all available critical infrastrucure, now that it’s value is hugely depreciated.
The tens and hundreds of thousands of innocent dead due to “surgical” cluster bombs, DU, and sanction-based starvation and disease effects are now sufficiently weakened, confused , silenced, and shocked and awed beyond the point of attempting to assemble to voice their opinions, which they are not permitted to, to vote, which they are not permitted to do until a suitable cast of corporate lackeys can be assembled for them to choose from, or until the pillaging is complete, at which point we will cease to care what they think because we will HAVE the oil firmly in hand, or to further attemp to protect their lives and property, as befits citizens of ANY sovereign nation.
As conquerors, we retain the mass media strength to continue to deny and obscure the real humane effects of our crimes while continuing to focus on the exaggerated crimes of the previous dictator. Nothing new there.
By all reasonable (and independent of American pressure) estimates, we are now responsible for as many as a million innocent Iraqi deaths, and the culprits named as the targets have vanished while the elite of the previous dictators jackbooted soldiers are being recruited to stem any anti-American thoughts or actions.
The facts indicate that we will persevere in our domination of the fossil fuel world market as long as it remains the driving force behind our current and future leaders’ sphere of financial and military influence.
The idea that this brutal crusade is about liberation, justice, or freedom is morally repugnant.
Boo Boo Foo said it so much better than I will. Despite that, I need to take a swipe at this too.
The presumption and arrogance of thinking you own a country, simply because you invaded it, is mind boggling. The Iraqi people did not ask to be invaded; they did not ask to have their assets auctioned off to the highest bidder. No it was American arrogance that managed to bludgeon its way into Iraq to make manifest some twilight neo-conservative wet dream of “America Ascendant”.
You allowed your government to toss aside the rest of the world’s advice. You allowed your government to squander any and all chance of multilateral co-operation. You allowed your fears to justify an invasion on continually shifting grounds until what was left was a morass of truth, mistakes and outright deception.
Having done all that you are now the guardians of Iraq, not the owners. You and your fellow tax payers have taken the responsibility to provide peace, order and good government.
So far you’re failing.
But Simon, what we have here is a classic case (if you’re an Iraqi that is) of “I’m happy to strangle my own mother, but don’t YOU dare say a bad word about her…”
Polls tend to indicate trends etc - and I accept that they play a valid role. What I perceive as being the crux of resentment amongst most Iraqi’s is the utter sense of being bullied into chaos by forces way beyond their control.
So, as bizarre as it might be, Iraqi’s might indeed despise Saddam Hussein, but at the same time - there’s always going to be a part of their psyche which adds that “at least he was our own, and at least we had law and order and security etc”.
Now, however, it matters nought how honourable the intentions of the “Coalition of the Willing” might be, the reality is that the trouble-makers who would willingly manipulate the Iraqi population to at least offer “moral support” to their cause - well, they’re on the ground, y’know? They’re there, in the mosques, pumping the radio and newspaper editorials, preaching the cause; screaming the rhetoric.
And ultimately, the only sorts of societies which can withstand the onslaught of such a “hearts and minds” battle are those societies with very healthy and mature civil institutions, along with a very prosperous middle class, and an extremely robust education system.
However, I’m told that in real terms, the average GDP per capita of an Iraqi citizen has absolutely plummeted from $17.500 per annum in 1979 to now being under $1,500 per annum. Along with this, illiteracy has soared - as well as infant mortality.
Obviously, I’m more than happy to conced that this long slide into poverty has taken place over 15 years under Saddam Hussein’s rule - but nonetheless, it’s totally predictable that the USA has now become the perfect scapegoat for all of Iraq’s woes. Indeed, amongst those who are fighting the manipulation battle, having the USA there in person WITHIN Iraq has proven to be an absolute gift from heaven - at least in terms of providing the most exquisite scapegoat that the entire world could provide.
And you see… THAT is my point. The real battle isn’t military, nor monetary. The real battle is perception. And right here, right now? The USA has done everything imaginable in the last 6 months to exacerbate the perception within Iraq, amongst Iraqi’s, that they are indeed the Great Satan that Ayotollah Khomeini was preaching about all those years ago.
So, it doesn’t matter what the polls say. Indeed, it doesn’t even matter if the Coalition Forces do a magnificent honourable job. What counts is that there are enough utterly embittered bigots within Iraq, along with an extraordinarily fertile soil for recruiting future martyrs that basically, those Coalition bastards are walking around with huge bullseye’s on their backs - 24 x 7.
And worse yet, the Israel/Palestinian conflict has shown, time and time again, that in the face of extreme bigotry and hatred, the voices of “moderates” get shouted down - every single time.
And that’s what’s gonna happen in Iraq. Attacks like the bombing of the UN Headquarters are going to continue. The sabotage on power lines will continue. The sabotage on oil pipelines will continue. Whilstsoever there are Americans on Iraqi soil, the bigots will keep up their killings just like the bigots in Palestine.
This is a real no win for America. She can neither leave, nor bear the pain of staying. I truly believe, as honourable as the intentions might have been, that the USA has made a dreadful blunder. And the single greatest reason is because she isn’t capable of winning the battle for hearts and minds.
I think you are forgetting the fact that these guerillas are carrying out attacks on the IRaqi people, and when they do attack US soldiers, often end up killing more Iraqi bystanderss than Americans.
I would agree that we are losing the battle for hearts and minds if our competition wasn’t so much worse.
Not to mention a lot of the guerillas are foreigners just like us. Except they aren’t there to build, are they? Only to destroy and terrorize Iraqis. Not exactly a good hearts and minds strategy.
Source material from the ICPA re the sale of Iraqi infrastructure:
From http://cpa-iraq.org/regulations/index.html
Foreign investment:
http://cpa-iraq.org/regulations/20030921_CPAORD39.pdf
Banking
http://cpa-iraq.org/regulations/20030924_CPAORD40.pdf
Banking
http://cpa-iraq.org/regulations/20030924a_CPAORD40ANNEX.pdf
Overview of Commercial law in Iraq
http://www.export.gov/iraq/pdf/iraq_commercial_law_current.pdf
Whilst I agree with your sentiments and outrage at the thinking behind this invasion, I don’t think it can be dismissed as either stupid or a mistake, not from following the line of thinking behind previous US ‘interventions’. It is just another classic example of exacting US foreign policy which we have seen time and again enacted out around the world. It was not a mistake. In fact, according to historical precedence, it will be seen (like Vietnam) as a success for the US and her interests, but just not for the reasons (humanitarian etc…) that people actually wish for.