This has probably already occurred to everyone else…
It seems that drawing parallels between our experience in Iraq and Vietnam is using the wrong quagmire. Our situation in Iraq more closely resembles Northern Ireland:
Shi’a = Protestants
Sunni = Catholics
Insurgents = IRA. Even their tactics (bombings) are the same.
US Army = British Army.
So does this mean we’re looking at 30 years of policing the country and providing targets for the insurgents? Is there anything from the British experience in No. Ireland that we could learn from?
There is no perfect historical analog for any contemporary state of affairs. Our current situation with Iraq may not be exactly like Vietnam, but that doesn’t mean that there are not lessons to be learned from the experience of Vietnam. The main attraction of referencing Vietnam is that it is well understood by Americans, whereas most Americans don’t know jack about Northern Ireland other than that one Tom Clancy movie.
There’s certainly lessons that may be learned from Northern Ireland, but it is hardly a more accurate analogy. While Protestants in Northern Ireland are basically pro-British, the Shiites in Iraq certainly cannot be called pro-American. Also, saying the insurgents are like the IRA is equally facile, because it is now well known that the insurgents in Iraq are both Shiite and Sunni (eg, al Sadr’s militia and Saddam’s former cronies). But I don’t think that there is much to be learned by thinking of Iraq in terms of Northern Ireland, because Iraq has to be dealt with as Iraq.
I agree…Iraq is its own beast. You can draw only the most peripherial (and superficial) analogies between Iraq and Vietnam or Iraq and NI. Iraq is Iraq. It will follow its own course, progress in its own way…and its at its first big cross road right now I think with the elections and the aftermath.
I don’t think we can project into the future what Iraq will be like or where it will be stability wise years into the future based on how Vietnam turned out or what happened in Ireland or Korea, or the progress of the war of 1812, the 30 years war or how the Boer War went…though many have tried to do so for partisan reasons IMO.
I also agree that though none of those conflicts is THIS conflict, there are lessons to be learned from all of them with reguards to Iraq. I’m unsure whether this administration has learned any of them, but hope springs eternal I suppose.
I think this falls over once you look at the details:
the US invaded all of Iraq, not just part of it
there was existing democracy (including political parties) in Ireland
the British troops in Northern Ireland have a far better understanding of the locaL culture and language
the IRA also uses robbery, drug smuggling, kneecapping, protest marches, shooting and other criminal activity. It has a ‘political wing’ (the Sinn Fein party) which enters elections, and has had elected members of the British Parliament. It has received donations from US citizens.
Northern Ireland has been held by the British for centuries. There is no expectation of withdrawing.
the US helped Saddam to power in Iraq before turning against him.
The comparison can’t be drawn.
In addition to some of Glee’s points:
The US army wasn’t sent in at the behest of a government to protect the Shia from the Sunni.
The Shia don’t have death squads that are under the control of agents of the US government and are receiving information and instruction to aide assasinations of prominent members of the Sunni, nor aide in Shia bombing raids into Iran.
The US government isn’t supporting a system that involved institutionalised repression of the Sunni so that they can’t vote, can’t own a home, and can’t get into certain trades.
the comparisons aren’t there.
BTW, Glee, since when was a protest march illegal? Are we going down the Bloody Sunday route again?
Sorry, that was sloppy sentence construction by me.
I meant to say that the IRA have various criminal activities and also organise protest marches. Which the insurgents in Iraq don’t.
“Senior officers point out that for 30 years the army has helped the RUC to combat the involvement of IRA and other terrorists in the drug trade, organised fraud and smuggling in Northern Ireland.”
"The law has never caught up with Tom ‘Slab’ Murphy. Intimidating and shrewd, he has avoided whatever traps customs and the police have laid for him over the past 30 years. This man is no ordinary smuggler, but the leader of the toughest IRA unit in history. Tom Slab Murphy is the IRA’s chief of staff – its commander in chief.
“The community in South Armagh depends on the benevolence of Thomas Slab Murphy, every single factor of its life. Nobody buys a farm, nobody builds a house, nobody sells a house, nobody does anything that Tom does not, is not, aware of; that is not referred to Tom. Everybody is doing very well. The community is awash with money.”
“On April 24, 2001, the House of Representatives Committee on International Relations published the findings of its investigation into IRA activities in Colombia. Their report clearly demonstrated a longstanding connection with the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), mentioned at least 15 more IRA terrorists who have been traveling in and out of Colombia since 1998, and estimated that the IRA had received at least $2 million in drug proceeds for training members of FARC.”
The significant difference of the situation in Northern Ireland has been almost perversely overlooked;
The majority of the residents in Northern Ireland regard themselves as British and wish to remain so. They do not therefore regard the British Army’s presence as one of invasion, occupancy, liberation or in any way temporary.
You cannot say any of that for Iraq and the US (+others) Army.
To a matter of degree, I think you can; I think the Shiite majority is (relatively) happy to have the Americans there, and see them more as liberators than invaders. The Sunni view is much more negative.
I would agree that my analogy was facile, and that the political situation in Iraq (before the war) bore no resemblance to that of Northern Ireland. But I think the nature of the insurgency now – in the sense of the kind of war that the US finds itself in – is darned close.
glee, none of your cites are authoritative sources on the Northern conflict (certainly not Mr. O’Callaghan, who has not been anywhere near the IRA for donkey’s years … and note in any case that the BBC site refers to Mr. Murphy simply as a “smuggler”. There are other things to smuggle besides drugs).
You can find many sloppy researchers throwing out “drug smuggling” as part of the laundry list of crimes they accuse the IRA of. But none of these allegations have ever been substantiated and many non-republican observers who are actually in a position to know, including former RUC Chief Constable Ronnie Flanagan, have stated that they are false. It’s quite telling that among all the accusations leveled against the IRA recently by the “Independent” [sic] Monitoring Commission and Irish Minister for Justice Michael McDowell, guess what illegal activity isn’t mentioned?
Please. They were not even accused of, much less proved to be, involved in drug smuggling.
This relates to American supporters of the IRA, not the IRA itself.
First of all Bloomberg has its dates wrong. The IMC report which was published in November dealt with British demilitarisation, not paramilitarism. Its other two reports are available online [here](www.ireland.com/newspaper/ special/2004/imcreport/imcreport.pdf) and here (PDF files). You can see for yourself that neither of these reports accuses the IRA of involvement in drugs smuggling - although they list several other paramilitary groups said to be involved. As I indicated earlier, I think this is pretty significant - and again, it shows what sloppy research goes into a lot of the websites dealing with the subject.
Your other two links (one of which was already posted by glee) are, again, simply repeating unsubstantiated allegations - and neither are authoritative sources on Northern Ireland (techno.de? you’ve got to be kidding). Instead of posting whatever Google throws up when you search for “IRA” and “drugs”, how about looking for some real evidence? Good luck.