read that as more than one group.
Sorry to quibble, but that was Nathan Hale, not Thomas Paine, whose quote you modified.
Nathan Hell?
After the idiocy of the OP, it’s nice of LonesomePolecat to show up and correct the cosmic balance by providing an equal amount of idiocy from the opposite side of the political spectrum.
Magellan: yeah, that wasn’t entirely clear in your original post. I thought you were objecting to the second half of post 37, and couldn’t figure out what you were on about. I thought maybe you were some sort of rabid Red Dawn fan and were blowing a gasket at the idea of comparing Iraqi insurgents to a young Patrick Swayze.
Mind you, your clarification is not a whole lot more rational. Being opposed to terrorist scum murdering civilians, and believing that the US administration had been a five year long fuckup of collossal proportions, are not mutually exclusive ideas. I don’t know why this idea has so much trouble penetrating the minds of so many conservatives, but criticism of the current government is not the equivalent of praise for our enemies. For many of us, our dislike of George Bush stems directly from our antipathy for terrorists. We can’t fight global terrorism with this gang of clowns in control of the country. We need someone with intelligence and character at the helm, but failing that, we’ll take someone who can find their ass with both hands. Bush is woefully, if not criminally, inadequate for that task.
If you will reread both your and my posts, I think you will see that I haven’t disagreed with one statement you’ve made. In fact, many I agree with wholeheartedly. I was merely pointing out how I was disappointed to see, yet again, “…I think the terrorists are wrong when they blow up children, BUT…BUT…BUT…” Now, you’re not here to please me or disappoint me, so you’re free to tell me to go shove it or try to strgaihten out the miscommunication, as I attempted to do after your post to me.
But since you seem to think there’s more that needs repeating concerning all that is wrong about the war and our execution of it (again, most of which I will probably agree with), I’m glad I gave you the opportunity to use another 90% of another post to restate it. Don’t worry, I did see the little part about how the terrorists were bad, too.
Please, feel free to take advantage of this post to do more of the same. Or, if you’d like to venture out with some new material, fill in the blanks:
Rapists are horrible, vile people. But__________________________.
Jeffrey Dahmer was a disgusting human being. But____________________.
Pedophilia is a an unforgivable crime. But________________________.
Domestic abuse is one of the scourges of our time. But___________________.
Slavery is an abominable institution. But_________________________.
I thought I explained it better the second time. Hopefully my latest post to NurseCarmen will clarifiy things further.
Rapists are horrible, vile people. AND
Jeffrey Dahmer was a disgusting human being. AND
pedophilia is a an unforgivable crime. AND
domestic abuse is one of the scourges of our time. AND
slavery is an abominable institution.
Glad to have expanded your worldview.
-NC. (A guy, btw)
Sure it does. You need the prescription to your star-spangled-banner glasses checked. Or better yet, chuck them all together and take a look at reality.
You’ll be amazed to see all you’ve been missing.
You mean like Bush and Rumsfeld? Great idea. I will commence holding my breath now while waiting for that to happen…
People are basically alike. “They” buy into one belief structure and we ascribe to another. Both sides, civilians and military alike, are often blinded with propaganda. The facts are manipulated. The atrocities that we do are suppressed as much as possible.
Why is it that we always seem to end up being friends with the “evil scum” we fought in other wars? When I was a child it was the Japs and the Gerries that were the demons.
There are good people and thoughtless people and confused people on all sides. Haven’t we learned anything from Abu Ghraib?
light strand, thank you for your voice in this bewildering thread. Your name suits you. May your loved one be safe and home soon.
I am enough of a (military) professional to recognize and applaud courage, professionalism and gut when I see them. I see some of that in the insurgents. I suspect they have at least some admirable soldiers.
Mostly though I do not see those admirable traits. The techniques they use are not soldierly. When the Americans are too tough to fight, they set off bombs in mosques. That seems to be a simple desire to bow anybody up without regard to reason. That is not admirable.
Taping the hands of drivers to their (suicide) vehicles? That is just weird.
Further, I do not respect the cause for which they are fighting. That is to say minority rule of the Sunnis over the Shias. This is a prescription for civil war. Civil wars are the worst sort.
So all in all, I respect the soldierly virtues wherever I see them. When I see them in this war I respect them. Still I see a lot of disturbing stuff on the part of the insurgency. All in all, they are the Bad Guys.
No reason to doubt your qualifications; no contending issues with your above quote.
Question first, comment second.
1-Why, for Pete’s sake, is it so goddamned difficult for so many of you --mostly Americans – to understand that there’s NO UNIFIED INSURGENCY in Iraq instead of a loosely grouped insurgency whose sole unifying goal (for the time being) appears to be a desire to end foreign occupation though their means vary wildly. From undeniable terrorism to classic guerrilla warfare.
I was leaning towards something in the water but seeing your location, that can’t be it.
2-Means. How the fuck can you compare the means of the most powerful fighting force the world’s ever seen with what the insurgents have available to them and then conclude that they “aren’t soldierly”? What do you think this is, The Duellists? (fabulous movie, BTW) Again, without doubting your expertise, do you not realize just how fucking silly that sounds?
What would be “soldierly” from the insurgents? Fight F-18s (or whatever number you’re up to now. I’m surely no expert in military hardware) with RPG’s? Please, are you seriously implying that hi-tec hardware makes American’s tough per-se?
If I may, boxing analogy. Had Sugar Ray ever fought Tyson, what do you think he’d try to do if survival was the issue? Having watched them both in action in their prime, I have no doubt Sugar would have tried landing a punch to the nuts and/or an ear-chomp, first. Fuck the Marquis of Queensberry and his rules when the other guy’s already shat on them prior to the fight. As in being twice as big and strong as Ray.
Multiply that times a hundred and you’ll begin to get an idea of just who the insurgents are fighting. Doesn’t make them heroes, but certainly overmatched in classic warfare. Surely you can see that.
Again, not doubting your expertise but from my vantage point that makes perfect sense. If I were commited enough to a cause that I’d be willing to immolate myslef for, I’d want to make sure my hands didn’t waver at the last second. For I’d might likely die for ‘nothing.’
Do you think they give a shit what you care about? Not only is it their country/region, but I can think of many a nation that became just that though – an admittedly bloodly – civil war. Yours for instance. On top of that do you doubt for a second that Sistani would even begin to hesitate in unleashing his own armies on your troops if the outcome of Iraq was anything other than what he wants? Or have you so quickly forgotten who ended the stand-off with Al-Sadr’s militia in Kabul?
Please, the notion that the Shiite majority is anything akin to “pro-American” is beyond ludicrous. Like all other factions in Iraq – excluding the Kurd’s for, ironically, the same self-serving reasons – they are only out to use to consolidate their power.
To end this tangent, as much as I think your current Administration is mostly comprised of arogant imbecils, I am also sure this whole scenario is too obvious to miss – so all that’s really happening behind closed doors is that while real people die on both sides and sloganeering continues, it’s business as usual.
Meaning that some will get very rich and many will die. No more no less.
Might I suggest you send Hollywood a script based on your perceptions/fantasies? Though I am sure it’s way too late, as they are more than likely flooded by you ‘heroid deeds in Iraq’ in the off chance yours is a hit I’d settle for a measly 20%. Net.
Then again, money is not enough for me to hope you’re right in your fictional take.
All due respect to your credentials. Again.
I must call foul here for several reasons.
First and foremost, the United States is not the source of evil in this world. We do some fucked up things sometime but I have a few questions for you:
- Who hasn’t?
- If a country had as much power as we do, would they have used it in a much worse fashion then us?
What did the Dutch do to the indigenous people of the Spice Islands? What did the Belgians do in the Congo? What about the Atlantic slave trade? The list goes on and on and to claim that the rest of the world, especially Europe, occupies some sort of moral high ground is really absurd.
Let me recall the litany of power mad people in the past who have done, in my opinion, more horrible things:
Hitler
Stalin
Pol Pot
How many genocides have their been in this world and which ones were we a part of? Don’t get abstract about us being responsible for a genocide by not doing anything about them because that begs the question, what did anyone do about them? Let’s be frank: What would another nation do with the power that the United States has? We aren’t afraid because ultimately we could nuke the entire Middle East if we wanted to. Do you think Russia is a real deterrent? Let me assure you that fear does not restrain this country.
A lot of anti-American sentiment was there before this war even started. The French didn’t like us before the war. The unfortunate thing about this war is that it legitimizes those who hate us. I think that most people who hate us don’t know who we really are. Let me tell you something about my countrymen, they are, for the most part, decent hardworking people. The type of people that if they saw you hurt out on the street and regardless of who you are, they would come running to offer you help. Time and time again, I have seen people stop what they were doing and rush to the aid of someone in a car accident or to someone who was hurt. Strangers helping strangers. This is at the core of most Americans and yes, it can be exploited at times. Americans are simple for the most part, content with what they have and law abiding. They are capable of reason and can sit down and have a composed debate without violence. Most of these pro war people actually believe what they say about helping the Iraqis. The blame for this mess does not rest with the average American.
I despise Bush and the Republicans for obvious well documented reasons. I voted against the Bush clan three times. My major beef is that the Republicans are hurting our country. Our soldiers do not go to war for oil (which is what this war is partly about) but rather truly believe that they are going to protect America. I respect them for this. Their enemy is my enemy. And I say to you, those who relish our soldiers being killed, what would happen in your country if the shoe was on the other foot and it was I cheering your enemy on? Would you get a composed debate like this? I bet in some places I would be dragged out into the street and shot. Let’s look at the reaction to terror shall we? After 9/11 how many Muslims were killed or mosques burned? When that one Dutch director was killed, how many mosques were burned? How many muslims in Britain abused? I’m not faulting their reaction but I merely point this out to show you the decency of your average American. I ask you, those that blindly hate America, to open your mind as well.
Man, I wish I was as eloquent as RedFury or NurseCarmen. Then this might not be the train wreck it’s become.
Look, I’ll say this once, in big letters:
I do not approve of a lot of what the insurgents do. I think quite a lot of them are either self-serving or deluded. I’m sure most American troops are just trying to do their job and go home.
This does not mean that the invasion is validated. Not even on the grounds of “keeping the peace”. No, I don’t want to see your husbands/cousins/nephews/whatever killed. I’d much rather they all came home safely. But I, a non-American observer, value Iraqi lives more than American. Especially since the ratio seems to be more than 100-to-1 in the deathcounts. Also because the Americans* do not have to be there*. They chose to (meaning American forces as a whole, not individual soldiers). Sure, most of those deaths are now Iraqi on Iraqi, but I don’t think the Coalition forces are helping at all. If they’re not helping, they should get the hell out.
I’ve lived through a liberation struggle. Maybe that’s why my sympathies lie with the invaded not the invaders. I’m not sure. Man, one really-badly worded OP and I’m Satan.
Okay MrDibble. We gonna get to the bottom of this.
1)What evidence do you have that the american presence in Iraq is that of a Jackbooted Opressor? I didn’t know the army was comprised solely of SDMB moderators
2)Why do you think that the insurgents are better than the ahem coalition forces?
Ok, that’s a teeny bit of hyperbole. “Jump-booted” oppressor is more like it. Evidence? They’re there, right? In a country that no-one invited them into. And they arbitrarily lock (sometimes) innocent people up in detention centres, where they are tortured…I can easily find pictures if you like. Sounds pretty oppressive to me.
Because they are the people fighting against an overwhelmingly superior invading force.
Oh, yeah. Those burqa-clad women and nose-picking toddlers are one hell of a force to reckon with. Thank goodness someone is taking them on.
You what?
I know sometimes seeing things from other people’s POV is difficult but I am always just stunned by how people don’t get it. If you don’t have the imagination to think how Iraqi’s feel, then imagine how you’d feel if the US was occupied by, say, Saudi’s.
You’d hate them and want them out with the heat of a thousand suns. You’d be fighting shoulder to shoulder with other Americans who, in peacetime, you’d regard as your political opposites. You’d perceive the occupiers as vile assholes no matter how nice they were to you.
People hate hate hate being ruled by those who are not of their ilk, even if they are frankly ruled well.
No one on the planet does patriotism as well as you Americans. Think where that patriotism would drive you if it came up against an occupying force of non-Americans, even nice ones.
Now project that feeling onto Iraqis and stop being so goddamned thick about how they feel about the presence of US forces in their country.
I liberal. You a bit slow on the uptake.