Iraq today - is this the price for democracy ?

If so, I would have choosed to live under a dictator
Democracy and freedom of speach vs. law, order and peace ?

I would easily have choosed the last

Ignoring your false dilemma, for the moment, would you care to post a somewhat more coherent argument?

The options are hardly limited to “Democracy and freedom of speach vs. law, order and peace ?”

If you are merely saying that you would rather live in a stable dictatorship than a civil war, then I can move this to IMHO for you. If you are trying to say something else that will prompt a genuine discussion, then please post it so that I do not close this thread.

[ /Moderating ]

Yeah, but you’re from Central Europe, so we knew that already.

In other news, a new study shows Europeans prefer tyranny to democracy.

Or wait, was this supposed to make AMERICANS feel ashamed of themselves?

Yeah, democracy can be seen as somewhat of a luxury, when you don’t have food, shelter, employment, physical safety…

But no one coulda possibly predicted that there would be any difficulty simply replacing Iraq’s previous regime with a western style democracy?

I hope that question was ironic.

I remember going to a talk during the lead up to the war. Not sure who - a retired journalist I believe. One of his main premises concerned the impossibility of simply imposing western-style democracy upon a society that didn’t even have an established middle class - and the kid of established institutions that allow for economic and other longterm planning. Those can be more vital to a society’s stability than the specific manner by which officials are selected.

Made sense to me then, still makes sense. Of course, at the time the vast majority of folks were counting on the best and brightest making their decisions based on their superior information…

The only established institution in Irak is religion. Democracy must go though islam

That’s my suggestion

So, WildfireMM**, do you have a point for discussion?

He hasn’t even settled on a spelling for the name of the country we’re discussing.

The trouble with Iraq is that there are three brands of Islam there, and they don’t seem to like each other very much.

We don’t know, but it is very possible that there are quite a lot of Iraqis who are not that keen on religion.

@Wildfire**MM you seem to be saying that there is no alternative to government by Islam because it is the only thing that is remotely organized in Iraq.

I understand your point that ‘democracy’ pales into insignificance when there is a break down of law and order.


I think that this might get moved to IMHO

  • however I’m interested in where you come from in Central Europe, is it in former Yugoslavia ?

Our views are heavily influenced by our experiences, to a lesser extent by what we’ve been told about by people who have experienced things.

I think that Iraq will probably land up partitioned into three sections, and I can see a Ba’athist solution in Central Iraq. Syria is Ba’athist which could help.

Central Europe = France, Germany, Benelux, Swiss

Syrian ba’athists and iraq ba’athists have always been mortal enemies. Syria sided with Iran not Iraq in the war between the two.

Huh? Switzerland, maybe, but France, Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, and Luxemburg (Benelux) are all West-Europe.

Western Europe have two meanings. For most it means the political entity that border with East-Europa. Central Europa is in this context a part of west Europe

I did not know that - but it figures

Mind you the USA and Iraq were once pretty friendly

  • I’m just guessing on the outcome for Central Iraq, I would reackon that they have more in common with the Syrian nomenclatura than anyone else adjacent.