Iraq: Why did We get it wrong?

[glee]

@e-logic

Germany and France had both had the crap blown out of them during 5 years of heavy warfare.

I imagine that in 5 years’ time, were the Russians / Chinese* to enter Iraq and

1. throw the yanks out
2. try democracy again

the Iraqi people may well be much more receptive.

The US involvement in Iraq / Afhanistan is (IMO) part of a long-term strategoc goal to ensure a stable world ecomony in America’s favour.

The real worry for the US is Inda, Pakistan and China - all of whom will challenge the US economically in the next 20-30 yrs. The US now have troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, perfect for exterting control should either I, P or C flex their muscles.
*hypothetically, not like it’s really gonna happen

Sorry, I don’t agree. My point was that democracy was restored in Germany and Italy.
Iraq has lost two wars recently - its economy is certainly weaker than either Germany or Italy after WW2 (even allowing for oil revenues).

The Chinese don’t bring democracy. See Tibet.

The invasion of Afghanistan was to capture Osama Bin Laden. Remember him? That’s now been abandoned, and the Taliban now control more of Afghanistan than the US. Heroin production is back up to massive levels.

Wars, especially those which are seen as unjust, don’t ensure a stable World economy. Once you factor in the increased terrorism, there certainly is no reason to hope for profits.

Since the US can’t even control a bunch of tribesman in Afghanistan (the Russians couldn’t either and they sent in far more troops), it’s ludicrous to assume those troops will be able to stop the Chinese army.

[Der_Trihs]

@ExTank

I would be hard pressed to argue against anything you’ve said, but I have a few questions: how does this relate to straight up criminality of rape/homicide? Are you trying to say that the perpetrators thought they were conducting ad hoc field interrogation?

Of course; we’ve been encouraging that sort of thing for decades, like with the “School of the Americas”. Rape as an interrogation technique, and so on.

[BrainGlutton]

@Der Trihs

Of course; we’ve been encouraging that sort of thing for decades, like with the “School of the Americas”. Rape as an interrogation technique, and so on.

But our troops didn’t go to that school. (Did they?)

[XT]

@Der Trihs

Of course; we’ve been encouraging that sort of thing for decades, like with the “School of the Americas”. Rape as an interrogation technique, and so on.

Do you have a cite for this…or is this yet another example of you pulling bullshit out your ass?

I will await with bated breath…

-XT

[elucidator]

@BrainGlutton

But our troops didn’t go to that school. (Did they?)

No. Our troops taught at that school. Welcome to Cold Comfort Farm.

[BrainGlutton]

@xtisme

Do you have a cite for this…or is this yet another example of you pulling bullshit out your ass?

Here’s one. Nothing about rape, but the stuff that’s been declassified is still pretty hair-turning.

[Der_Trihs]

@xtisme

Do you have a cite for this…or is this yet another example of you pulling bullshit out your ass?

I will await with bated breath…

-XT

Am I the only one who bothers to use google ? Google !

REV. ROY BOURGEOIS, School of Americas Critic: We have discovered-- actually documented-- not a few bad apples who have come out of this school, but over… right now, over 500 soldiers who have been involved in massacres, torture, rape, the disappearing of many people in their countries.

It’s hardly something new, or all that obscure. Just google “School of the Americas” “Rape” and you’ll get all the other cites you like.

AFAIKT, it’s not that I “pull bullshit out my ass”; it’s that you live in a bubble where you’ve never heard anything you disagree with.

[Askance]

@ExTank

I would be hard pressed to argue against anything you’ve said, but I have a few questions: how does this relate to straight up criminality of rape/homicide? Are you trying to say that the perpetrators thought they were conducting ad hoc field interrogation? Or somehow thought the higher-up’s nudge-nudge-wink-wink attitude towards “interrogation techniques” gave them carte blanche to act like the Mongol hordes?

Basically the latter, although I would have said they thought they had carte blanche, rather than actually having it.

[XT]

@BrainGlutton

Here’s one. Nothing about rape,

Yeah, I noticed that too. I noticed something else also (from the first line of the cite):

The Torture manuals was a nickname for seven training manuals which had excerpts declassified to the public on September 20, 1996 by the Pentagon.

These manuals were prepared by the U.S. military and **used between 1987 and 1991 ** for intelligence training courses at the U.S. Army School of the Americas (SOA). The manuals were also distributed by Special Forces Mobile Training teams to military personnel and intelligence schools in Colombia, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, and Peru. [1]

I suppose its possible that the new manuals have similar stuff in it…but I tend to doubt it after a congressional hearing on the subject.

While appalling and repellent (to me), I have to say that nothing in there seems TOO over the top (I only skimmed the cite though…maybe I missed the really hair raising stuff).

The manuals advise that torture techniques can backfire and that the threat of pain is often more effective than pain itself. The manuals describe coercive techniques to be used “to induce psychological regression in the subject by bringing a superior outside force to bear on his will to resist.” These techniques include prolonged constraint, prolonged exertion, extremes of heat, cold, or moisture, deprivation of food or sleep, disrupting routines, solitary confinement, threats of pain, deprivation of sensory stimuli, hypnosis, and use of drugs or placebos. [3] [4]

After all, at least in theory the folks who we (or our allies) would be dealing with aren’t exactly happy go lucky kind of guys. And of course nothing on teaching rape techniques…

@Der Trihs

It’s hardly something new, or all that obscure. Just google “School of the Americas” “Rape” and you’ll get all the other cites you like.

Um, no. Thats YOUR job, as its YOUR bullshit assertion. BTW, I read through your ‘cite’. Even if I swallow it whole and take it at face value, no where in there does it say that rape techniques are taught at this school. So…push on my man. Lets see a credible cite that rape is taught there. Oh…and it would be nice if what you cited wasn’t pure speculation but had some facts in it.

@Der Trihs

AFAIKT, it’s not that I “pull bullshit out my ass”; it’s that you live in a bubble where you’ve never heard anything you disagree with.

AFAICT you have a wide eyed, knee jerk acceptance of any anti-America propaganda that comes your way. What ever critical skills you may (or may not) possess seem to desert you if the subject is the US…well, the US being evil, blah blah blah.

-XT

[BrainGlutton]

@xtisme

While appalling and repellent (to me), I have to say that nothing in there seems TOO over the top (I only skimmed the cite though…maybe I missed the really hair raising stuff).

You might want to look at at this:

Editing of 1983 CIA manual

In 1985 a page advising against using coercive techniques was inserted at the front of KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation. Handwritten changes were also introduced haphazardly into the text. For example, “While we do not stress the use of coercive techniques, we do want to make you aware of them and the proper way to use them,” has been altered to, “While we deplore the use of coercive techniques, we do want to make you aware of them so that you may avoid them.” (p. A-2) But the entire chapter on coercive techniques is still provided with some items crossed out.[6]

Sounds kinda CYA SOP.

[Least_Original_User_Name_Ever]

We didnt get it wrong. The intelligence agencies are getting unfairly blasted.Everything Colin Powell said was disproved before he said it. The aluminim tubes were a joke. The mobile labs were cartoons and didnt exist. The yellowcake was disproved and they lied. The weapons of mass destruction were disproven by the inspectors. The nuclear program was disproved. it was long before the decision to go to war had been ratified. The administration made a decision to ignore the data and go to war.

[BrainGlutton]

@Least Original User Name Ever

We didnt get it wrong. . . . The administration made a decision to ignore the data and go to war.

I know, I know. But the question under debate here is not whether the invasion was justified, or a good idea, in the first place, but why we have bungled the occupation so badly.

[Voyager]

@BrainGlutton

I know, I know. But the question under debate here is not whether the invasion was justified, or a good idea, in the first place, but why we have bungled the occupation so badly.

They do kind of go together. The obstacles to invading included both the lack of justification for the invasion and the consequences of invading. The Administration ignored both. Throw in Rumsfeld’s do it on the cheap strategy and you get the mess we see today.

[Malienation]

Wow, in spite of the heat I still feel a nasty draft coming…

[BrainGlutton]

@Malienation

Wow, in spite of the heat I still feel a nasty draft coming…

Not unless W decides to go to war with Iran or Syria.

[Squink]

@BrainGlutton

Not unless W decides to go to war with Iran or Syria.

Michael Ledeen Answers the OP:

The greatest failure of our leaders, with rare exceptions, is their refusal to see the war plain, which means Iran and Syria (might as well call them “Syran,” since they operate in tandem, with Tehran pushing most of the buttons). It was never possible to “win in Iraq” so long as we insisted on fighting in Iraq alone. You can not win a regional war by playing defense in one country. It was, and remains, a sucker’s game. Syran pays no price at all for killing our kids and our allies in Iraq and Afghanistan, and now in Gaza and Lebanon/Israel.

[sqweels]

We have lost the War on Terror. To ourselves.

We have seen the enemy in the War on Terror and he is BUSh.

[Squink]

Another public take on the OP:
Bonner (R-Ala) suggests U.S. mission in Iraq could fail

“We may look back and say we gave it our best shot and we did everything we could do to make it a success. And at the end of the day we could not make people accept the gift of freedom.”

In other words, It’s all the Iraqi’s fault.

[BrainGlutton]

@Squink

Another public take on the OP:
Bonner (R-Ala) suggests U.S. mission in Iraq could fail In other words, It’s all the Iraqi’s fault.

Someone needs to explain to Congressman Bonner that freedom and democracy are not the same thing.

[Bob55]

@August West

We never should expected a country that was a false construct to survive intact. You have 3 groups that despise each other, the only way to hold it together was through a dictatorship.

I actually believe we’re doing better than is presented in Iraq (from my own talks with marines in my family who have been there), but have to say that this is right on the money. Iraq is a bunch of tribal warlords, and Sadam was the biggest and baddest of all warlords who ruled everyone. Likely it would be best for Iraq just to break apart now.

But that being said I have to have faith that deep down everyone desires to be free, and hope that these people can overthrow their dictatorial ways and form some sort of free government.