Q: If WMD were found in Iraq, would it have any effect on resistance to US occupation? More, less, same?
Q: If Bush would invade Iraq with explicitly stated goal of removing Saddam/his sons/Baath, would it have any effect on resistance to US occupation? More, less, same?
Q: If Bush would invade Iraq with UN approval, would it have any effect on resistance to UN occupation? More, less, same?
Iraqis who are fighting US soldiers in Iraq now, would be fighting them under any circumstances.
Enough about Iraqi resistance. What about our own resistance to Iraq occupation? I ask that because quite a few people in the West seem to justify Iraqis resistance based on their own disagreement with or dislike of, Bush, in general and his tactics on Iraq in particular. Those people don’t seem to understand that US or UN invasion would meet the same response in Iraq, whether it was justified exactly as they wished or not. Most of those people are to the left of political center. Yet they don’t seem to understand that what Iraqi resistance is fighting for is more horrible then anything they ever dreamed of in their “Bush made dictator” nightmares. In essence, they consider the cause of Iraqi resistance “just”, because it is anti-Bush.
This is not addressed against those who are principally against any invasion. Because if you are against the war in principle, then whether it’s done by UN or US and under what pretenses mustn’t matter. This is against those who keep harping about “legality”, “lies”, “missing WMD” , ie procedural issues; what they are basically saying is that there was a “proper“ way to invade and occupy Iraq. That’s not how Iraqi resistance sees it.
I was about to say something, but then Uncommon Sense got to it first. I guess it’s not all that uncommon, eh?
Anyway… I don’t think the typical anti-war type is actually rooting for the Iraqi resistance (although a few of the nuttier ones are). I think their principal goal is to just not have US military presence in the country, and to criticize what they view as deplorable acts by the administration.
Can I ask you where you got these quotes and figures? You throw them up there like they’re gospel truth, but without a cite.
Y’know, 99% of all statistics are just made up.
I think if you asked the average Iraqi insurrectionist these questions, and an Iraqi citizen with family that were kidnapped/tortured/killed/etc. by Ba’athist or Hussein regime members, you’ll probably get two sets of answers.
Who are you to speak for all of Iraq’s people, BTW?
Do you have examples? Becuse I think you got it backwards. Most people do not condemn the policies because they dislike the man but rather they dislike the man because they find his policies unacceptable.
Irrelevant straw man. The fact is the invasion is unjustified and unjustifiable.
Most of those people are to the left of political center.
Maybe or maybe not. I am not one of them. So what does that have to do with anything?
Yet they don’t seem to understand that what Iraqi resistance is fighting for is more horrible then anything they ever dreamed of in their “Bush made dictator” nightmares. In essence, they consider the cause of Iraqi resistance “just”, because it is anti-Bush.
False. I consider the resistance just because I consider the invasion unjust.
If the entire world community represented by the UN had decided to endorse the invasion then maybe the resistance would be the same but I would not be defending them as i am now because right now they are fighting an unjust occupation which, in my eyes, gives them legitimacy.
I endorsed the first Gulf war. I am not endorsing the second.
These are my own logical conclusions. You wanna argue? You wanna state that if WMD were found, resistance would decrease? You wanna state that if Bush limited his goals to removing Saddam, resistance would decrease? You wanna state that if Bush would invade Iraq with UN approval, resistance would decrease? C’mon!
Well, I think it would have some effect. The support of the “Baghdad street” is pretty vital to the resistance. In the least, a UN mandate may have changed the opinion in the Gallop Poll of Baghdad
I think they knew about just how nasty a person their beloved Saddam was, but invasion was humiliating and a bit of a bitter pill to swallow. If the world would have stood shoulder to shoulder and said “Hey, listen, Saddam is a pretty bad guy” I think the average Iraqi would have taken the invasion a little less hard. As it stands, with the US history, and it’s unwavering support of Isreal, who has been painted as the ultimate boogie man in the Arab media, Iraqis are understandably deeply skeptical.
It pisses me off the so many right wingers paint a revised history of the debate of a little over a year ago. There more than just a “War” vs. “No War” debate going on. Nobody had a love for Saddam, but a huge complaint I, and many others, had, was the administrations unwillingness to build a coalition and fenagle some sliver of UN approval. Had that happened, I suspect that there would have been near unanimous support to have an 800 lb smart bomb shoved down Saddam’s throat. And I think the Iraqi people would have been able to swallow it a bit easier.
They would fight just the same. They would “sacrifice their blood and souls for Saddam” or “for Islam” just the same. They would fight to defend their way of life, to defend many things that are abhorrent to any decent human being, such as corrupt autocracy, secret police, wanton extermination of undesirable people by a token of ethnicity, religious orientation or political association, suppression of all civic freedoms by a whim of a tyrant and his clique, subjugation of women, heedless rape of natural resources… and you would quibble? You’d vacillate whether to lend them more or less legitimacy, depending on which of our politicians wants to turn them out of power in their country, depending on how much you are pleased with his methods?
Those people hate all of us equally. They would eviscerate both of us with equal glee and they have my respect for that. Once again, it’s not about them. It’s about you.
The first target of terror bombing after US occupied Iraq was Jordanian embassy. The second was UN mission, that was deliberately trying to stay away from US troops.
Because most Iraqis don’t give a damn about those things. Many of them are sympathetic, while quite a few want us all dead. But they don’t understand at all what the hell we are talking about with our political hair splitting. They don’t trust us, too. To paraphrase Aldebaran, “US’ers speak with a forked tongue.” But we don’t trust each other all that much either.
The only unwillingness Administration demonstrated was to sit around forever and wait to hear French to say “Oui”, Russians say"Da" and Chinese say “Yadda, yadda, yadda”, or another way around, with all the US troops and machinery in the desert and brutal ME summer coming around, which was at least a responsible course of action.
That is not the point of your stupid rant and so, it is an irrelevant straw man. Your point is that
So please make up your mind of what the hell you are talking about.
Personally I justify Iraqi resistance in that they are resisting an illegal and unjustified agression. Whether the resistance would be the same if the circumstances were different is an unknown but is also irrelevant.
A man may react the same way if his car is taken by a thief or repossessed by the lender but I support him against the thief and not against the repossessor. The fact that his reaction may be the same is completely and utterly irrelevant. I supported the first Gulf war and I do not support the second Gulf war.
No, I don’t want to state any of those things. Because if I don’t know that they are facts, and some asshole is sure to come along and call me on posting unsupportable bullshit.
Which is what I’m doing to you right now: where’s your evidence that any of the things you’ve claimed in this thread are true? Do you have any credentials that make such sweeping generalizations in anyway believable? Do you live in the Middle East? Ever been to Iraq? Studied the culture? The language? You got anything going for you other than a bunch of hot-air and uninformed opinions? It’s not enough just to have an opinion. You gotta prove yours is worth listening to.
False. As Saddam/his sons/Baath have already been removed from power, the occupying force would be home by now if Bush’s ultimate goal was removing them from power. Thus, there would be nothing to “resist”.
Since Bush’s current ultimate goal is to both remove them from power AND set up a democratically elected, US-friendly government, our troups are still there getting “resisted”.
If we had never invaded Iraq in the first place, would we be having more, less or the same argument over 400 or so dead soldiers and four mutilated civilians?
I’m gonna go with less.
I sure as shit don’t support Iraqis who feel they must pull this to try to demoralize us, but I’m not shocked by it. What the hell, did we expect? They were just going to go all fetal and praise the name of Bush when we waltzed in?
If you pick a fight with a dirty fighter, don’t piss and moan when you get kicked in the nuts.