Irish pronunciation

It’s no secret that we Americans can have difficulty pronouncing some Irish names. I just saw a list of Irish names and their pronunciations and I noted that Caoimhe is pronounced Kee-va, Meabh is Mayv, Naomh is Neev, Siobhan is Sheh-vawn. So h is pronounced like v. Except Blaithin is Blaw-heen, Iarfhlaith is Eer-lah, Odhran is O-rawn, and Tadhg is Tieg.

So is there a rule on when you pronounce h as v and when you don’t? Or does it vary on a case by case basis?

Do these rules apply to Irish words in general or is this just a thing with names?

And Iarfhlaith? Seriously? You guys just made that one up to mess with us, right?

Of course there is a rule for pronunciation. Irish words and names are at least as phonetically spelled as English ones, perhaps more so. It’s just that Irish uses the familiar alphabet in a different manner.

Irish has “broad” and “slender” vowels. The broad ones are a, o, and u. The slender ones are i and e. Which vowels are where affect how the consonants are pronounced.

If I remember my Irish properly (it’s actually been about 3 decades since I studied this) in “Siobhan” the i next to the initial S is what makes that S a SH sound. But the V sound requires broad vowels on either side, hence the o and the a bracketing the BH. The h in the BH is to turn the B sound into a V sound. The H is for aspiration, it modifies the proceeding consonant. You also see this in Noamh and Caoimhe where the H turns the M into a V sound. In an older Irish alphabet h wasn’t used for this purpose, they put a dot over the m or the b for the same effect but when folks started using standard type it didn’t always have that option so they started using the h to indicate aspiration.

Does this sound crazy and complicated? Do you want to explain all the different ways you can pronounced “ough” in English? Now that is whack.

Why all the complicated letter clusters? Because Irish has more sounds in the language than there are letters in the alphabet. More or less the same reason English does it, except Irish has more sounds than English and uses a couple fewer letter than English does.

All Irish words.

Of course, there are some irregularities because it is a natural language. It also has at least three dialects with their own quirks (think of the differences between American English, British English, and Australian English).

Someone with more knowledge of Irish might be along soon to go into more detail.

Don’t forget Eithne (Enya).

For me, Irish is the hardest language to figure out how to pronounce, which is not a tonal language. French is as nothing to it. Its orthography is perfectly opaque.

A little more like Kwee-vah, but not much emphasis on the “w” sound. I had a friend of that name years ago.

The orthography is a challenge, but like English this is due to pronunciation changes over time (= after the spelling was set), plus at least one major spelling reform which was s partial fix.

There are sites like forvo where native speakers pronounce words to help you get used to the system.

It all depends on how much Guinness you’ve consumed. Thought that went without saying.

Similar to Italian or Spanish, funny enough, which people are more used to:

Italian:
C before a, o, u: k sound
C before e, i: ch sound (/tʃ/)
Ch before e, i: k

Spanish: San Francisco, the C is pronounced differently in both cases.

Irish orthography is fairly regular, there are a few exceptions but nothing like English or French.

Irish:

C before and / or after a, o, u: k sound
C before and / or after e, i: ky sound (sort of as in cue: ky-oo)
Ch before and / or after a, o, u: x (ch as in German Bach or Scots Loch)
Ch before and / or after e, i: hy sound (sort of as in huge: hy-ooge) / German ich

Except Italian only does this with C & G, while Irish does it with everything, and a lot of the sound changes mean the slender lenited consonants (eXh, iXh, Xhe, Xhi, etc.) are now silent in most dialects. Many of the silent consonants fell out in the spelling reform, though.

That’s because Irish had an episode of spelling reform more recently than either of those other two. If you go to documents prior than that I’m told things are bit different. I base that on statements from native speakers, my own command of Irish isn’t so much a command as a feeble, suggestive gesture.

Couple of points:

First, Irish spelling is highly regular - much more so than English. Somebody unfamiliar with English orthography may have great difficulty with “George” or “Hugh”, for instance, and of course the British are famous for having both forenames and surnames whose pronunciation is hard to infer even if you are familiar with English orthography (Ralph, Zoe, Chloe, Isla, Phoebe, St John, Dalziel, Home, Menzies, Colquhoun, Farquhar, Ayscough, Beauchamp, Bagehot, Berkeley, Colcolough, Nighy).

Irish became a written language well before English did, so Irish spelling conventions are wholly uninfluenced by English ones. Hence anglophones, especially monoglot anglophones, can have some difficulty when they encounter Irish words.

Irish adopted the Latin alphabet at a time when that alphabet had not yet developed into the one we know today — some letters were yet to emerge, and some were still regarded just as variants of other letters. So Irish is written with an alphabet of only 18 letters — Irish did not use j, k, q, v, w, x, y, z. (They are used nowadays, but only in loan-words borrowed from other languages.)

This relatively small number of letters has to be used to signify a relatively large number of phonemes. Irish has 44 or 45 phonemes, depending on the dialect spoken. (Most variants of English, by comparison, have 36 or so.) So a lot of phonemes are represented by combinations of multiple letters (supplemented by a couple of accent marks). English uses letter combinations as well (-sh-, -th-), but Irish uses a lot more of them.

In the mid-twentieth century there was a spelling reform, to eliminate one of the accent marks and to simplify some of the consonant groups. But, as is often the case with spelling reforms, proper nouns such as names often continue to be spelt using the older conventions, or they are found using both older and modern conventions.

Finally, although written Irish has a single form, there are regional pronunciation variations.

So, take the name Siobhán, mentioned in the OP. The pronunciation of the central -bh- is affected by the fact that it’s bracketed by the vowels o, a; it would have a different value if bracketed by i, e. But it also has a different value depending on where you learned your Irish; in some places it has a sound that, in English, would be signified by -v-; in others the sound elides towards a -w-.

Iarfhlaith, also mentioned in the OP, is one of the names spelt using older conventions. Simplified versions of the name are also found — Iarlaith and Iarla.

Can I hop on with a related question I’ve been meaning to ask for a while?

How do people speaking Irish pronounce “Niall”? I would expect the first 3 letters to be pronounced much the same as the first 3 of “Niamh”, so that “Niall” is pronounced not that differently from its Scottish and English equivalent “Neil”; if I’m wrong about that, what would the explanation be?

British people tend to pronounce “Niall” a bit like “Nile”. I would have thought that was wrong, except that Irish people speaking English invariably in my experience do the same. If it is wrong, why do Irish people continue to do it?

The name is Niall in both Irish and Scots Gaelic, and you are correct about the pronunciation; it’s “NEE-al”.

It’s anglicised as Neil and the anglicised name is quite commonly given. In Scotland you’ll find people named both with the Gaelic original and with the anglicisation. Neil is sometimes also used in Ireland as an abbreviated version of Cornelius, but in that case it’s not a given name but a nickname.

The “NYE-al” pronunciation probably started as a spelling pronunciation of the Gaelic name by English/Scots speakers.

In Ireland, the “NYE-al” pronunciation isn’t regarded as necessarily wrong; just as the English pronunciation of the Gaelic name, and people will often (but not always) use it when speaking English.

Just to add to the mess, Scottish is pronounced/spelled differently and has had its own spelling reforms. Oíche versus oidhche, for example.

There are several pronunciations recorded on Wiktionary alone: [n̠ʲiəl̪ˠ] under “Irish”, [ɲĩʊ̃l̪ˠ] under Lewis, and /ɲial̪ˠ/ on North Uist. No “NYE-al” though…

In an episode of “Laugh-In” in one of the later seasons, one sketch involved Barbara Sharma as a schoolteacher explaining how the letters of the alphabet are pronounced. She asks one of her students (Arte Johnson) to read what she has written on the board: The Little Lame Prince.

He dutifully follows what he’s been taught: “Tuh-he Lit-lee Lah-me Prink-y.”

Not exactly knee-slapping funny, but it got the point across about English and its exceptions.

Yes, that’s true, very good point.

The reform isn’t as complete or strong as in standard Irish, (standard) Irish has a greater simplification from its original form when you compare word length, for example.

A handy visual tip is that since reforms, modern Irish úsés ácuté accénts and Scottish ùsès gràve àccents exclusively. Manx only uses the çedilla (for /t͡ʃ/ as in “CHeese”, not soft s as in Français)

I butchered “Saoirse Ronan” when I first saw it.

I pronounced it: “Say-Oh-ear-see” It’s pronounced “Sasha”. LOL

It’s not pronounced “Sasha” in Irish, usually. English speakers tend to see an R after a vowel and kind of skip it, but that’s not a thing in Irish. is more or less the same as , but with a broad S, so “SERE-sheh” (I would have said “SEER-sheh,” but “seer” is two syllables in English.

Well, heck, it turns out that my “source” couldn’t pronounce it, either! :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Interesting. I’ve always pronounced “seer” with one syllable. Looks like both are represented in dictionaries.