Is a man's wealth attractive, independent of his other attributes?

Just on terminology - I think the colloquial use of the word “adaptive” is fairly rare, it doesn’t have any self-evident meaning in a non-technical context. The way I’m using it in this thread (which I think is consistent with what you’ll see in research papers that deal with any aspect of evolution) it always has the specific technical meaning of “genetically determined, evolved through natural selection by having a fitness advantage”. So in the context of this thread, I have generally been using it as an antonym to cultural - i.e. meaning instinctive as opposed to culturally determined. It’s a value-neutral term, and it doesn’t imply that something is beneficial to us in the modern environment, just that it’s an instinctive trait that originally evolved through natural selection (and not genetic drift).

Culture and moral reasoning evolve in the colloquial sense of developing, perhaps with some parallels to biological evolution (Dawkins’ “meme” idea), albeit not with the same technical constraints. And of course, I understand you are drawing that parallel in what you write here. But I’m just pointing out the potential for misunderstanding.

Sure, but one point I have been arguing above is that given the technical constraints of how natural selection works, those circumstances would tend to be unusual. We now have convincing evolutionary models for how general prosocial behaviors are adaptive (and without invoking group selection). A general prosocial behavior would be sharing food, for example. The very thing that’s distinctive about humans is the great extent of our prosocial behaviors. Our evolutionary niche is cooperation for mutual benefit, and that, just as much as intelligence, is how we have come to dominate this planet. But even when cooperative behaviors are proximately altruistic, if they are adaptive behaviors they must (by definition) be ultimately selfish, in the sense that they benefit the actor in preference to others who don’t act that way; and where “benefit” is defined as getting more of your own genes into the next generation in preference over other people’s genes. So you can see that it’s much easier for general mutually cooperate behaviors to be adaptive in any social structure, but it’s much more difficult for the specific prosocial behavior of having no preference for your own kids to be adaptive. It’s possible, but the social structure would have to be exceptional in order for this to be stable in an evolutionary sense - in other words for it not so be susceptible to invasion by a mutant trait to give preferential treatment to your own kids - because that’s such a direct way to give your own genes a better chance.

I’m not sure if you’re using “evolved” in the technical sense here of biological evolution, or a loose sense that might incorporate culture.

Not all genetically determined traits are adaptive, they may be side effects - much of the diversity of what we do in the modern world (both good and bad) comes from having giant brains that originally evolved for much narrower reasons. Perhaps our aspirations to be truly altruistic are along similar lines, since they cannot (by definition) be adaptive. Our core prosocial tendency is adaptive - to help others in our social group, but only with the expectation of reciprocation. So we have a strong sensitivity to “good” and “bad” behavior - we monitor other members of our social group to see if they are pulling their weight and likely to reciprocate. In other words, as something adaptive this is proximately altruistic behavior with an ultimately selfish goal. So adaptive evolution gives us a strong instinctive sensitivity to proximate good/bad behavior along with a huge brain. That seems like the perfect platform to use our brains for moral reasoning to elevate our behavior toward true altruism.

It may surprise you given this thread, but I more often find myself on the other side of this kind of debate - debunking the notion that only our most crude and obviously selfish traits are instinctive, and that the origin of all good must lie completely outside of our natures. An idea common among religious folk, of course.

Not cartoonish at all. I think you’re being disagreeable for no good reason.

All I’m positing is there is a U-shape distribution in male wealth and certain attributes that are widely valued in relationships. An obvious one would be fidelity, but quality time spent with family is another. Wealthy men tend to be busy men, and they tend to have a lot of competing priorities rather just one or two. Women who mate with rich men are making tradeoffs just as much as women who mate with poor ones; the tradeoffs are just different. This means there are a lot benefits to being with guys in the middle of the pack.

I’m trying to see what could possibly be controversial about this idea.

To piggyback on what you with the face said wealth maps very closely to culture. A poor woman may be attracted to the prospect of a middle-class or upper-middle class partner, but be turned off by the cultural gulf between her and him.

I’m gonna guess that the U-shaped curve also explains why a lot of men won’t bother asking out the most attractive women. Rightly or wrongly, people form positive associations with physical attractiveness up to a point, and then negative judgments creep in. Judgments like “she’s vapid and superficial and probably too full of herself.” Some guys might think a woman is a REAL looker might come with a hefty price tag (a “gold-digger”). Insecure men may worry they’ll never get a moment’s rest if their girlfriend is too hawt because they think they’ll be constantly fending off male competitors.

Wealth is the same thing. Biggie was not lying when when he said “more money, more problems”. Everything comes with a trade-off.

What is controversial is whether or not those presumptions and stereotypes you have about wealthy men and their attributes has any factual basis. Yes, to be a bit disagreeable, cite please?

Maybe it would help if you offer up your definitions of “wealthy” and “middle class”.

Are you defining “wealthy” as the top 10% or the top 0.1% billionaire class or what?

“Middle” is what?

“Americans’ median wealth is a mere $44,900 per adult”. That’s often both partners working long hours and juggling to make it work (with the mother of a two parent family doing more of the childcare and up in the middle of the night). Median household income about $51K. Education level in general less at the median than in the top 10%.

Top 10% is populated more by two more highly educated and more highly compensated parents, hiring out some of the household tasks, which still fall on the mother more. Yes busy but present. I know these people and quality family time is important to both parents, even if sometimes it is concentrated on week ends or family vacations, and not always being there for the family dinner on week nights.

Are there dysfunctional families among the extremely wealthy with children who grew up into horrible people? Of course and they are often celebrity cases. Are there dysfunction families at median wealth and income with children who grew up into horrible people? Of course and we all know some of them.

Among the few extremely wealthy I know the fathers are very very invested in being there for their kids with quality time. That’s anecdotal but the uninvolved dad’s I know of usually are not contained within that set, even in the cases of divorce.

Yes there is some mapping of wealth (of each sort) with culture, but assuming specific negative attributes are part of the culture of the wealthy or of the middle per se is without basis.

There’s also the idea that gorgeous women can just ride on their looks, so there’s less pressure for them to develop other selling points. People may argue that this is just a baseless stereotype, but there is more than a kernel of truth to it. Ugly girls learn early in life that attracting a good man is not impossible if you are approachable, friendly, and a good conversationalist; keeping him is also quite doable if you excel in the kitchen and bedroom. But if men are chasing you down the street every time you go outside because you’re beautiful, there’s actually pressure for you to become less approachable and friendly, and developing skills in the kitchen and bedroom don’t seem critical to keeping male interest.

Here’s one:
Men who are tall, smart and rich are more likely to cheat while lonely housewives with high sex drives are the type of women most likely to stray from a relationship, a new survey suggests.

Two:
Across two in-depth studies (one of which assessed participants’ views on a Dear Abby letter), Grossman and his team concluded that upper-class folks are “associated with a lower propensity of reasoning wisely in interpersonal situations.” In other words, rich people are less likely than poorer people to exhibit flexibility, empathy and all the other traits that make up wise reason when it comes to relationship.

Three:
Investigating the broad personality traits of the Big Five and the more specific traits of narcissism and locus of control, we find that stereotypes about wealthy people’s personality are accurate albeit somewhat exaggerated and that wealthy people can be characterized as stable, flexible, and agentic individuals who are focused more on themselves than on others.

These are just a few that I could readily find. To seriously question what I’m positing, you’d essentially have to believe there is an linear relationship between male wealth and their quality as not just as mate but as a human being. “Absolute power corrupts absolutely” is not something I came up with; there is a real-world basis to it.

Don’t concern yourself with cutoffs; think in terms of tendencies. As a man’s wealth approaches infinity, do you think the likelihood stays the same that he’s a thoughtful, nurturing, and giving partner and father? Because I don’t. It’s hard to be those things and be wealthy like that.

What I am saying is that we have evolved, in precisely that technical sense, the ability and need to develop cultures.

The details of the individual cultures aren’t built in to us, of course; we make those up as we go along and change them all the time, adapting them to everything from different climates and different food availability to the impact of particular individuals. But the human drive to invent cultures is built into us, as is the human drive to live in groups. Some of the underlying rules probably are built in also, although the expression of those rules clearly isn’t as it varies widely and wildly. All human societies have rules about sexual behavior, for instance; but what those rules are can be hugely different.

I know you have better critical thinking skills than to actually think that profiles offered by men looking to hook up on IllicitEncounters.com, a U.K. dating website, having men overwhelmingly saying they are tall, smart, and rich, is any sort of evidence. When asked they also overwhelmingly say they are very truthful. What you don’t take at face value the word of people looking to cheat?

You may want to look at the actual study your news bit references. While it is underwhelming as a study for what it claims, what it claims (greater intellectual humility, recognition that the world is in flux and changes, and greater ability to take different contexts into account besides one’s own, in lower SES than higher SES populations of both genders), is NOT in support of any of your stereotypes about wealthy men.

Nor even is the last one, which restricts itself to those with net worth over a million Euros. It first and foremost documents that the stereotypes widely held about the rich are exaggerated but still on average the rich *are *slightly more likely to be: more emotionally stable, more conscientious, and have a greater internal locus of control; while also being slightly more narcissistic.

While it is a matter of taste whether slightly more narcissism outweighs slightly greater emotional stability, conscientious, greater internal locus of control, in mate choice, it says NOTHING about the stereotypes you espouse.

Your position is precisely that there is a strong, if not linear, negative relationship between a man’s wealth and his value as a human being, with wealth correlating strongly with being an uninvolved/distant parent and a partner who forgets anniversaries and such.

Let’s look at that fathering involvement claim … NYT

More.

Greater wealth enables that. It is easier to be more engaged and more nurturing with access to greater resources.

Can’t go wealth to infinity but Warren Buffet has been pretty much as close as people get to that and is well known to have been a thoughtful, nurturing, and giving partner and father. Bill Gates has also been on that as close to infinity as it gets list a long time and is also known to be a doting husband and father. Zuckerberg is also reputed to be very into his father role and supportive of his wife. Bezos, not so much so. And Larry Ellison, last of these five richest men in America, has been married and divorced a few times. Seems to me like a likelihood not too dissimilar for thoughtful, nurturing, and giving partner and father as the rest of America. And same likelihood of being a horrible father and spouse. Top 5 is a small n I know …

I’d think it is actually easier to be wealthy and to be those things.

From the last study I cited:

Pro-social traits (compassion, empathy, selflessness) make for better mates in the long haul. If these traits become more rare the more rich a man is, there are rewards for selecting mates who are not wealthy.

Dseid, I’m done debating you on this topic. Have a happy Saturday.