It’s like the difference between saying “That is a lie”, and asking “Why did you lie?”.
True, and if I’d posted “Why did you lie” I’d expect to get modded.
Best practice? Check your facts before posting.
OP, this was a kinda bad thing to hang your hat on, since you were incorrect.
Respectfully, making an inaccurate statement is not a violation of the rules. Accusing someone of lying is.
Haberdash also made inaccurate statements about Prohibition but that wouldn’t mean that I wouldn’t be modded if I accused him of being a liar.
In fact, Tom seems to be implying that if I hadn’t posted afterwards “please don’t accuse me of lying” he’d have modded Haberdash.
Can you weigh in on “you’re a fuckface” versus “why do you think you can be such a fuckface”? The lines are apparently a little blurrier than I thought.
So, are you saying that Lying is Ok, but calling someone out for being a liar is wrong? 
:dubious:
How are we supposed to phrase it when your factoid is false?
What’s wrong with “your factoid is false”?
That’s not a accusation of lying, but of being wrong. Those are not the same thing.
I dunno. Would that be Ok with Master Chance?
Why wouldn’t it be.
All poodles are dogs but not all dogs are poodles.
All lies are false statements not all false statements are lies.
It better be! How could a debate function at all if we can’t say, “No, wait, that’s not true.”
“Nome is the capital of Alaska.”
“Um…gosh, that’s an interesting idea.”
It just so happens this came up in an earlier ATMB thread. Here is the poster’s explanation:
Just to add:
I know it’s not the same circumstance as your exchange, but based on my familiarity with Haberdash’s posts, he often suggests that anyone who disagrees with him is delusional or in denial (e.g., “Let’s not pretend…”). IMO, not quite the same thing as an accusation of lying.
ER…I’m not sure what I said that would cause you to think I said “lying is ok”.
I don’t mean to sound condescending but you do realize there’s a difference between “making a mistake” and “lying”?
Or is your position that any false statement, whether it’s a mistake or a deliberate fabrication should be treated the same?
We’ve had lots of posters refer to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as the “leader” of Iran when he was President even though he was only about the third or fourth most important official in Iran.
I never once accused people of lying when they said that and would have expected to be modded if I’d said “do you think you can just make stuff up” in response to the post.
That’s why I’m stunned by the idea that some saying “do you think you can just make stuff up” is not considered the same as saying “you made that up” and that claiming “do you think you can just make stuff up” is considered a “borderline” case.
Again, hopefully we’ll hear some clarification as to why “do you think you can just make stuff up” is considered significantly different than “you just made that up” when “in context”(to use Tom’s phrase) they both clearly mean the same thing.
One is a question and the other a direct statement. I agree that neither is appropriate in GD. However, a generalized question about an approach to a topic differs from a direct statement regarding a specific assertion.
The next time you feel you have been accused of lying, simply report it instead of responding to it, yourself.
Perhaps these issues have come up before
“Are you still beating your wife” is a question and “you used to beat your wife” is an assertion but most people would see them as meaning the same thing and would be taken as equally offensive.
I think all reasonable people would agree that it was very much not a generalized question but a rather specific question and furthermore that it was mean to be taken as an assertion.
Meaning no disrespect, but I don’t think anyone thinks for one second that Haberdash didn’t intend it to be taken as anything but an assertion and frankly suggesting he intended it to be taken as a question not an assertion is insulting his intelligence.
How did I respond improperly?
He accused me of lying, I explained it was not a lie, but a mistake and explained the reason for the mistake.
Are you saying that if someone accuses me of lying that it’s improper for me to say “I didn’t lie, I made a mistake because of X Y Z”?
Also, once again, if this really was a “borderline” case where I wasn’t accused of anything but instead asked “a generalized question” and he did nothing worthy of a warning much less a mod note, than what would the point of reporting it be since it wasn’t considered a violation.
FTR, I did report it, but I don’t see how saying “I didn’t lie, I made a mistake because of X Y Z” somehow put you in a bind where you felt you couldn’t take mod action.
One last thing, Jonathan felt I was being quite angry and self-righteous. I disagree, but I’d have to be completely lacking in self-awareness to not recognize how it wold be reasonable for him to assume so. If you felt that way, I’ll also understand.
Once again, I wasn’t angry at Haberdash((at least not beyond the first three seconds after I read Haberdash’s post) and I wasn’t angry at you or any other mods. I was honestly puzzled because I was under the impression, and clearly am not the only one who believed this, that accusing someone of lying, “making stuff up”, “making false assertions” etc. was something that was strictly forbidden under any circumstances.
Learning in this that making such a claim outside of the Pit is frowned upon and strongly discouraged but, in certain “contexts” considered barely acceptable is a bit eye-opening but I’m glad to have my understanding corrected. And no, I’m not going to try and use that to try and accuse people of lying while claiming “I’m not making an assertion, I’m asking a question” and don’t think for two seconds that doing so would be taken well.
The point being, I won’t insult your intelligence and claim I agreed with your decision, but I do respect it, don’t take it personally, and generally think if you’re going to make a mistake it’s better to make a mistake and not issue a warning when you should rather than issuing a warning when you shouldn’t.
I’m very confused about this one. If someone accuses you of lying, responding to that accusation renders their rule violation un-actionable by mods? Is the person accused of lying ever allowed to respond? For years, I’ve seen mods go through bicker-fests and mod the early rule-breaking posts that started it off. Why would this be any different? A post is either in violation of the rules or it’s not, regardless of what comes after it. Has that changed?
What’s the threat of allowing people to manage their own conversations?
No. Making a public issue about a borderline call, (and I realize that we are in disagreement as to whether it is borderline), puts the Mod in the position of appearing to take sides. If the matter is borderline, I am less likely to jump in to give the appearance of taking sides.
The mod is supposed to “take sides” on the issue of whether something is a rules violation. That’s the entire point of a moderator. If you think warning someone for a rules violation means you’re taking the other person’s side in the overall argument, how do you ever moderate anything?